See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 06 November 2008
<sharper> Scribe: Simon
<sharper> ScribeNick: sharper
<AllanJ> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/survey20081106/results
David Poehlman Comment: The proposal says interface but then goes on to say interface and rendered content. are we talking both? should they be split?
<AllanJ> Alan proposal: 2.1.2 For each user interface component, including the user interface itself and rendered content, make available its name, role, state, value, and description via an accessibility platform architecture.
JR: Looks good
<AllanJ> +1
Alan C: Should say 'and every' as opposed to each?
JR: Likes the way it is
<scribe> ACTION: jeanne Write back to David - re new wording [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-69 - Write back to David - re new wording [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-11-13].
<AllanJ> discussion on wording of PRINCIPLE 2. Facilitate access by assistive technologies
<AllanJ> sharper: assistive technologies seems too limiting
<jeanne> My concern with removing "assistive technologies" would be introducing new jargon that would not be easily understandable.
<AllanJ> JR: perhaps a rationale is needed. Change to "facilitate programmatic access"
<AllanJ> JS: need to make intention clear, want to keep 'assistive technologies'
<AllanJ> SH: concern for future of UAs, mobile, etc. programmers know programmatic access
<AllanJ> ...keep assistive technologies for pragmatic reasons
<AllanJ> SH: UAAG20 around for long time. should be more general more agnostic
<AllanJ> ... all of principle 2 says programmatic access
<JR> JR: Jan's point included making sure assistive tech is highlighted in the coming rationale
<AllanJ> ... rationale is assistive technology
AllanJ: Proposes change to programmatic access, but including AT in rationale
+1
SH: +1
<AllanJ> +1 makes it more general.
<scribe> ACTION: jeanne place 'facilitate programmatic access' into survey. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-70 - Place 'facilitate programmatic access' into survey. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-11-13].
<jeanne> ACTION: JS to place the rewording of Principle 2 to "Facilitate programatic access" in next week's survey [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-71 - Place the rewording of Principle 2 to \"Facilitate programatic access\" in next week's survey [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-11-13].
<jeanne> +1
<AllanJ> 2.1.2 For each user interface component, including the user interface itself and rendered content, make available its name, role, state, value, and description via an accessibility platform architecture.
<scribe> ACTION: jeanne place Alan's new wording into survey. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-72 - Place Alan's new wording into survey. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-11-13].
AllanJ: discussion of 2.1.3
JS: Address David's issue by adding a use case example
Davids Comment: this is unclear, what inaccessible functionality is left?
JS: do we have a use case for this.
<AllanJ> discussion of interrelationship between 2.1.2 and 2.1.3
<AllanJ> SH: why does UA have to compensate for accessibility platform architecture
<AllanJ> JR: UA can do lots of new cool things, but you have to map it some how to the accessibility platform architecture (apa)
<JR> ACTION: JR to Write a proposal to clarify and perhaps integrate 2.1.2 and 2.1.3 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-73 - Write a proposal to clarify and perhaps integrate 2.1.2 and 2.1.3 [on Jan Richards - due 2008-11-13].
AllanJ: 2.1.4 - everyone agrees with: 2.1.4 If the user agent implements one or more DOMs, make the DOMs programmatically available to assistive technologies.
AllanJ - AC: says "Do we need to specify which assistive technologies? Or to what degree?"
scribe: something like ' "... make the DOM or DOMs programmatically available to assistive technologies to the greatest extent possible??'
JR: we need to make it just programmatically available?
AC: AT can do different things - do we expect developers to understand AT?
AllanJ: Do we need to change AT to accessibility platform architectures
<Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to suggest that if a functionality works in only one modality (e.g. vision or mouse) then...
JR: programmatic access aims reduce the amount developers will need to know about AT
JS: More about functionality that is available in one modality, and the need for multiple modalities.
AllanJ: Everything needs to be in the DOM - this will handle different modailities
\me LET ME KNOW IF I'M GETTING THE NAMES WRONG PLEASE.
General Discussion regarding the interplay between API pipe, DOM, AT and accessibility platform
<jeanne> do we need 2.1.4 at all then?
AllanJ: In Conclusion DOM must be
available to AT
... Proposes 2.1.4 is complete
All Agree
<jeanne> ACTION: JS to add 2.1.4 to the new draft. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-74 - Add 2.1.4 to the new draft. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-11-13].
Judy: can we ask David Poehlman to clarify his comment 'cannot accept, advise or reject.'
<AllanJ> ACTION: jim to write david concerning clarify comment on 2.1.4 - need more expansion [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-minutes.html#action07]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-75 - Write david concerning clarify comment on 2.1.4 - need more expansion [on Jim Allan - due 2008-11-13].
item 3 3. Work on language of Principal 3 success criteria.
- establish style rules for document
- Issue 16 - Relook at the phrasing of Principle 3 to ensure
clarity.
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/16
- establish replacement wording for 'chrome' (SC 3.10.11, and
elsewhere, Issue 2 - http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/2)
from stored data
>From my mail 10. Principle 3, in particular 3.1 needs to be more clear. I�ve mentioned on a few calls how the user interface does a lot visually to convey meaning. I don�t think these guidelines give enough detail on what needs to happen or the expectation around accessibility. User agents today do a lot to convey state from security to page functionality with unique UI elements. AT jumps around loads of hoops today to convey this info.
Previous Discussion:
RINCIPLE 3: Ensure that the user interface is perceivable
JAllan: Anyone have any general problems with the wording?
none heard.
Now looking at Guideline 3.1 Provide text alternatives for non-text components
group is ok with general wording.
JR: I wanted to comment on something we found in ATAG. The item one that says you need to cover the accessibility of your platform is likely to cover this.
Jeanne: I wanted to ensure we covered the accessibility of documentation.
>From my mail 10. Principle 3, in particular 3.1 needs to be more clear. I�ve mentioned on a few calls how the user interface does a lot visually to convey meaning. I don�t think these guidelines give enough detail on what needs to happen or the expectation around accessibility. User agents today do a lot to convey state from security to page functionality with unique UI elements. AT jumps around loads of hoops today to convey this info.
<jallan> KF: should keep, need to be a bit explicit, to make sure the point gets across
More discussion about whether 3.1 is covered in guideline 1.
<jallan> KF: user interface everything is labeled and available programatically
<jallan> ... the UA could do more to make the information available.
<jallan> JA: 3.1.1 does not say make information available programatically
<jallan> JR: should be in Principal 2
<jallan> JA: information is available passively, the user must request the security state, rss feed, etc.
kford more discussion about this.
<jallan> ... do we need some SC to allow option to provide overview of current states in the UA
JR: I think principle two would cover most of this.
<jallan> JS: this is needed for low vision people.
kford: kford and Jeanne think principle three needs to be strengthened.
<jallan> ... ARIA has section on passive alerts, perhaps we need something like that
JAllan: we've talked a lot about
screen readers. Visually you glance around.
... if this is all available programatically, isn't it then the
AT's job to grab this info.
<jallan> KF: what is the state, what is important, the UA has gone through the effort to provide an icon. How is the user to decide what is important
<jallan> ... I am missing the gestalt of the information
<scribe> ACTION: kford jeanne to add guideline in 3.1 around improving perceivability [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/21-ua-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - kford
<jeanne> ACTION: KF to KF and JS to write proposal for Guideline 3.1 improving perceivability of user interface and passive status. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/21-ua-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-48 - KF and JS to write proposal for Guideline 3.1 improving perceivability of user interface and passive status. [on Kelly Ford - due 2008-10-28].
<jallan> JR: add to examples, kinds of important state information
JR: I think we need to add to examples, some of what kford was saying about important state in modern browsers.
JAllan: 3.1.1 needs to reveal info programatically and there needs to be some mechanism to provide a overview of important state items.
Guideline 3.2 Provide access to alternative content
JR: I have a long standing general concern about mixing content and user interface.
JAllan restates JR's concern.
JS: This goes back to what I was saying in the beginning about the overall principle. This talks about content and user interface.
JR: You either split into two principles or expand scope of the current principle.
JAllan: I prefer to keep one principle if possible.
Jeanne: We need to ensure any author controls like ARIA are perceivable.
<jallan> JA: the user agent provides a user interface to allow access to the author provided alternative content
kford: I think we need to expand
the scope of principle 3.
... Today the web author can easily extend what's traditionally
thought of of the user agent
<jeanne> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/CR-WCAG20-20080430/#perceivable
<jeanne> I think we should use the WCAG wording:
<Jan> PRINCIPLE 3: Perceivable - The user agent's user interface and rendered content must be presented to users in ways they can perceive
<jeanne> issue: relook at the phrasing of Principle 3 to ensure clarity.
<trackbot> Created ISSUE-16 - Relook at the phrasing of Principle 3 to ensure clarity. ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/16/edit .
AllanJ: Leave Issue 16 and move to success criteria starting at 3.1.1
JR: scrap 3.1.1 and concentrate on criteria primarily related to user agents not other kinds of software
AllanJ: as it is covered in principle 1
<jeanne> +1 to deleting 3.1
SH: +1
<AllanJ> +1
AC: +1
JB: +1
<jeanne> ACTION: JS to delete Guideline and SC for 3.1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-minutes.html#action08]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-76 - Delete Guideline and SC for 3.1 [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-11-13].
AllanJ: 3.2.1 The user has the global option to be notified of alternatives to rendered content (e.g., short text alternatives, long descriptions, captions)
<AllanJ> STYLE Note - action verbs
jeanne: refresh... rephrasing so everything starts with an action verb
<jeanne> Provide a global option to be notified of alternatives...
Discussion: ensure or provide?
AllanJ: Ensure
<jeanne> +1 to provide
<AllanJ> +1 provide
AC: Provide
<JR> JR: Provide
SH: Ensure
AllanJ: 3.2.1 done, choice is 'provide'.
<jeanne> ACTION: JS to update 3.2.1 with " Provide a global option to be notified of alternatives..." [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-minutes.html#action09]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-77 - Update 3.2.1 with \" Provide a global option to be notified of alternatives...\" [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-11-13].
<AllanJ> Provide a global option for the user to be notified of alternatives to rendered content (e.g., short text alternatives, long descriptions, captions)
AllanJ: Moving on to '3.2.2 Configurable Default Rendering: The user has the global option to set preferences for which alternative(s) are rendered by default. (Level A)'
<JR> +1
<Alan> OK
<AllanJ> Provide a global option for the user to set preferences for which alternative(s) are rendered by default.
<AllanJ> SH: if user can choose all alternatives to be rendered, how do we communicate that to the developer, that the user is to have a choice
<AllanJ> ACTION: jim to rewrite 3.2.2 to allow user to choose any combination of alternatives to be rendered [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-minutes.html#action10]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-78 - Rewrite 3.2.2 to allow user to choose any combination of alternatives to be rendered [on Jim Allan - due 2008-11-13].
<jeanne> ACTION: JS to draft a new wording for 3.2.3 for the 11/10 survey [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-minutes.html#action11]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-79 - Draft a new wording for 3.2.3 for the 11/10 survey [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-11-13].
<scribe> ACTION: sharper Suggest new wordings for 3.3.1 and 3.3.2 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-minutes.html#action12]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-80 - Suggest new wordings for 3.3.1 and 3.3.2 [on Simon Harper - due 2008-11-13].
allanJ: move open issues for next time.
<AllanJ> ACTION: Alan to reword 3.2.4 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-minutes.html#action13]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-81 - Reword 3.2.4 [on Alan Cantor - due 2008-11-13].
<scribe> scribenick: AllanJ
<scribe> ACTION: Jeanne to reword 3.2.3 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-minutes.html#action14]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-82 - Reword 3.2.3 [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-11-13].
<scribe> ACTION: Jim to reword 3.3.3 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-minutes.html#action15]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-83 - Reword 3.3.3 [on Jim Allan - due 2008-11-13].
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.133 of Date: 2008/01/18 18:48:51 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/2.1.3/2.1.4/ Succeeded: s/=1 provide/+1 provide/ Found Scribe: Simon WARNING: No scribe lines found matching ScribeNick pattern: <Simon> ... Found ScribeNick: sharper Found ScribeNick: AllanJ ScribeNicks: sharper, AllanJ WARNING: No "Topic:" lines found. WARNING: No "Present: ... " found! Possibly Present: AC Alan AllanJ Cantor Discussion IPcaller JAllan JB JR JS Jan Jeanne Judy P7 SH Simon joined kford scribenick sharper trackbot ua You can indicate people for the Present list like this: <dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary <dbooth> Present+ amy Regrets: kelly mark Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008OctDec/0043.html Found Date: 06 Nov 2008 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-minutes.html People with action items: alan back jeanne jim jr js sharper write WARNING: No "Topic: ..." lines found! Resulting HTML may have an empty (invalid) <ol>...</ol>. Explanation: "Topic: ..." lines are used to indicate the start of new discussion topics or agenda items, such as: <dbooth> Topic: Review of Amy's report[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]