Taken for Granted: Lin-Manuel Miranda Daydreams, and His Dad Gets Things Done (Transcript)

ADAM:
Luis, did you think your son was out of his mind?

LUIS:
No, no, I never think he’s out of his mind, I just think that he’s ... nuts.

[Adam and Lin laugh]

ADAM:
Nuts. That’s one way to have your dad describe you. But when you have a creative streak like Lin-Manuel Miranda’s, maybe it’s not such a bad thing.

I’m Adam Grant, and this is Taken For Granted, my podcast with the TED Audio Collective. I’m an organizational psychologist. My job is to think again about how we work, lead, and live.

You probably know Lin-Manuel from creating and starring in the cultural phenomenon that is Hamilton. Maybe you were one of the millions who saw it on Broadway or streamed it on Disney. Maybe you have the t-shirt I bought: 'My thoughts have been replaced by Hamilton lyrics.' But before Lin created the musical that has redefined the way many teachers cover history, he was a teacher. And before that, he was a student himself. In 1999, he began writing his first hit musical, which went on to win multiple Tony awards.

<In the Heights clip>

In the Heights, co-written with Quiara Alegría Hudes, tells the story of a bodega owner in the Washington Heights neighborhood of Manhattan who dreams of a better life. The film adaptation of In the Heights just launched, and it took me on a roller-coaster of emotions-- from joy to sorrow and moral outrage to elevation. I loved it.

After we recorded this conversation, Afro-Latinx critics raised concerns about their underrepresentation in lead roles. Lin-Manuel responded to these concerns on Twitter saying:

"‘I started writing In The Heights because I didn’t feel seen. And over the past 20 years all I wanted was for us—ALL of us—to feel seen...I can hear the hurt and frustration over colorism, of feeling still unseen in the feedback… I’m learning from the feedback, I thank you for raising it, and I’m listening. I’m trying to hold space for both the incredible pride in the movie we made and be accountable for our shortcomings.’”

I got the chance to talk with Lin-Manuel together with his dad, political strategist and activist Luis A. Miranda Jr. Along with being a force of nature in his own right, Luis has a long history of collaborating with his son—he hired Lin for a summer job as a teenager and promoted his first musical. Now Luis is Lin’s gatekeeper and they do a lot of philanthropy together, so I figured Luis could shed some light on what makes Lin tick.

We picked up some of the honks and horns of New York City in the background. So welcome to the Zoom Where It Happened.

LIN:
I'm Lin-Manuel Miranda. Uh, I'm the, uh, uh, composer of In the Heights.

LUIS:
Hi, I’m Luis. I pride myself on being the guy who gets things done.

ADAM:
Luis, tell us about how Lin worked for you when he was in high school... and you ended up demoting him to data entry.

LUIS:
Whenever he didn't care about something, he just didn't care about it. And he was always very sweet about it, uh, but he just didn't do it. And when things need to get done, You just hire someone. Uh, but when that person is your son, it's more difficult to fire that person. So you just demote that person. And he knew that he was being demoted, but you make them feel strong, uh, in this new responsibility, which is.

LIN:
I listened to a lot of wonderful music while I entered that data. And that wasn't more interesting to me than the more cumbersome tasks that were laid upon me earlier in this summer.

LUIS:
But there, there, there, there were all important tasks that he that's that's the way he was. As a child as well, he was not interested in something. He just didn't do it.

ADAM:
That reminds me of a classic study of creative architects, where one of the things that differentiated the most creative architects from their peers was they had spikier grades in school. They excelled in topics that interested them and they basically flunked everything that didn't land. It sounds like you were that kid.

LIN:
Yes. Um, and here's where I get to bring up. Uh, my, um, one of the, uh, toughest things about senior year of high school, or my father forced me to take AP statistics. Uh, and he said, um, it'll make you look, well-rounded. And I said, I'm not well-rounded so, you know, my, my grades reflected, um, you know, I did okay. In English and I did okay. In history and, um, and, and all of the arts, uh, things I was lucky enough to take, but yeah, for better or worse, I mean, In the Heights was written in an astronomy class that I did not get a very good grade in. I was supposed to be paying attention.

LUIS:
And you have to understand that astronomy class was the science requirement?

ADAM:
Well, I have to say. This clearly paid off when, when seeing In the Heights, but it all worked out. But Lin, I have to wonder, there have to be tasks now that are not intrinsically interesting or meaningful to you that are still important for you to be able to produce your brilliant work. How do you motivate yourself now, and what would you tell your teenage self?

LIN:
A couple of things. One, um, the, the things I cared enormously about then, and now we're, we're making things, um, and making things with my friends. I really. When I sort of fell in love with theater not by seeing shows, but by doing shows in elementary school and junior high and high school, you can't fire your castmates. You can't pay them. You're you're, you're in school. The only thing you have as a motivational tool is your belief in the thing itself and, and being, getting others to believe that we can make something greater than the sum of our parts. And so, I was probably more intense even then than I was now, because that was all I had. And I cared passionately about, um, making things, whether they were movies or whether they were plays. Um, and, and so, you know, but again, what comes with. Uh, I also learned very early on that I thrive on deadlines and that can be a positive thing. Not necessarily like it's Monday morning and you haven't done your homework yet.

Uh, but Tommy Kale who is, you know, the, maybe the most important collaborator in my life, realized very early that I thrived on deadlines. So he just said let's meet every Friday before any producer ever saw I_n the Heights_ before, you know, anyone before even Chiara was on board in 2004, he just said, bring in something every Friday, we'll meet in the basement of the drama bookshop.

And on days when I brought in stuff, we had stuff to talk about. And again, it became a joy to work towards that Friday meeting. Uh, and that's how In the Heights gets made. That's how Hamilton gets made is by, um, knowing that if I bring, if I work hard, um, and writing is always hard, I'm going to get to bring it into a room with, with smarter folks than me. And we're all going to get to kick the tires on it and make something better.

LUIS:
And let me tell you, and the second part of that question that he avoided, cause he didn't like it. Uh, which is how does he motivate. The things that he doesn't like to do by now. I know he has a great team of people around him, uh, that help in every way.
It's the thing on the agenda that gets pushed week after week after week. And then I finally ask him, “you're never going to do this, right? So why don't we have so and so do this,” and then it gets done.

LIN:
I, well, I need to do more podcasts with my dad, but I didn't answer you

ADAM:
Careful what you wish for.

If it doesn't get done, delegate it. I think that could be useful for anyone trying to manage a creative genius. Yeah. So let let's talk about In the Heights. I love the final product. I'm guessing the process is a little more mundane of creating it. And Luis, I wondered if you've learned anything from watching your son create, or is it the most boring thing in the world to watch Lin, right?

LUIS:
No, not at all. And, uh, and I follow it very carefully, uh, because like my wife, he thrives on deadlines. Uh, I'm the guy who you tell that something it's due next month and I'll start working now, so that it's done a week before. It's two and there's time to review it. That's not a Lin-Manuel. So I have seen this process on fold over two decades. Uh, and it's always fascinating because what comes next? It's certainly better. And there's always a real rationale and a real road that he followed of why he ended up at this new place.

ADAM:
Well, you and I are cut from the same cloth. Then my first TED talk was about how I'm a procrastinator instead of a procrastinator. You're giving me a, you give me a deadline and I will find a time machine to finish it early. If I have to. And I was stunned to discover that often people who procrastinate are more creative than people who dive right in because they incubate. They wait for the best idea instead of rushing into the first idea. Lin, I wondered if there's anything in there in your creative process and what you know about creativity that most people will get wrong.

LIN:
Oh man. Uh, I think for me, um, yeah, I, I I've always sort of said what you said in a joking way is there's kids who do their homework on Friday night and there's kids who did their homework on Monday morning. And for the life of me, I wish I were a Friday night kid. I'm sure it would result in less stomach aches. Uh, but that being said, um, Incubation is a really important part of the process. I think of the final numbers of two of my musicals, uh, both In the Heights, and Hamilton, they were both written on morning because of workshops where actors were waiting for the last song in the show.

And we spent them all, you know, I remember like the hydrants are open, cool breezes, hello, arriving at four o'clock in the morning, uh, on the day of a reading, uh, and, and writing all of that. Um, As quickly as possible. And, um, and the same is true of Hamilton. You know, Eliza's whole last section, I woke up like a shot at 3:00 AM, um, and had to get it done by 9:00 AM to give it to Pippa, to learn for our reading at nude as, uh, I'm sure my actors were incredibly stressed out by not having that material yet. I don't know any other way around it. I, I was, um, you're gonna love this, but, uh, James Lupines wrote a book on the making of Sunday in the Park with George. And, um, there's, there's a good long, they went into rehearsal of that without a second act.

They went into performances with an audience without a second act. And at one point, Mandy Patinkin grabs on time and, and said, give me anything. I don't care if it's a piece of shit, just give me something to say. Um, and, uh, and, and so taken aback. So I'm working on it, I'm working on it. And then he went on to write Finishing the Hat, which is maybe the greatest song about the artistic process that exists. But it really is about getting yourself into that mind state, where the world disappears.

LUIS:
One of the things that I have learned mostly over the last year in working closely with Lin-Manuel, and with him having so many balls in the air. It's that initially the way we handle it was “Okay. He could work on Encanto from 11-1, Uh, and is going to work on Tick, Tick, Boom from this time to this time,” to realize that's not the way the creative process works, probably for anybody and certainly not for Lin-Manuel. Yeah. And sort of working hard now with the team and say, “okay, two days and [inaudible] don't put anything else. Let him just marinate, whatever he has in his head. And even if he's doing nothing but eating chocolate cake, let him eat chocolate cake because that's how he's going to be marinated; the next song he needs.”

ADAM:
That's amazing. Uh, I have so many questions about that, but I want to, I want to talk about one of the characters in, In the Heights. Um, Nina, her arc is so, so interesting that she's the first in her family to go to college, but then she struggles when she gets to Stanford. And it reminded me of some recent evidence in psychology that there's a mismatch between the collectivistic cultures that we often see in immigrant communities. And the individualistic cultures that dominate our American universities and workplaces, I would love to hear both of your thoughts about how we can change that.

How do we take school or a workplace where help seeking seems like a sign of weakness and make it a source of strength? How do we build a sense of community in these very independent worlds of achievement that we've created in the U.S.A?

LUIS:
Long, long time ago, I'm talking about decades ago, I worked in a place called the National Action Council for Minorities in Engineering, NACME. Uh, there were very few black Latinos in engineering and the goal was ‘how do we create programs in universities that celebrate what these new students are bringing into the university? How do we accept a posse?” Now there's a Posse Foundation that we're working with, but enough of them so that they have a community and they can work together as a community.

And how administration is committed to do this when my wife and I were accepted into the PhD programs in psychology for New York university, 10 out of the 20 PhD students that are five blocks, five Latinos. 10 white, but then we got accepted and there was no professors. Nobody was interested in our dissertation topics. No one was interested in teaching what it was to shrink Latino hits. So none of that existed in the college. So it's not only to accept it's really to prepare the institution on how to best help those students, that they're accepting.

LIN:
And it's so interesting. You mentioned that the Posse Foundation, it's an organization that we've worked with, um, um, specifically in the arts lane to create a cohort of students, we're all going together so that you, you get to school with that, um, that group of fellow students and community resources. And I realize that the inception of In the Heights came out of a [inaudible] Posse experience for me. I was like living in, you know, I got to Wesleyan and lived in dorm housing my freshman year at my sophomore year. Yeah. I lived in a Latino program house, you had to write an essay on how you felt you could be a Latino community leader at Wesleyan to get one of the rooms.

And it was me and eight other Latino students. And I was the arts kid, I was the theater major in that house. And there was my, my upstairs neighbor Monta. Um, her passion was helping unionize the janitors at Wesleyan university. Um, the wonderful side effect being that Dave became our adoptive parents and they would come to our house, uh, to hang out when they weren't working.

Um, but again, it was also the first time I really had close friends and a system of, you know, a group of first-generation Latino kids around me, and we're making the same pop culture jokes, and we're fluent in Spanish and in English. And then Spanish, Latino pop culture and American pop culture. And I think that's what gives me the permission to write that first draft of it In the Heights. It's realizing, oh, I can bring more of myself to my work than just the pop rock stuff I was writing because I was inspired by Rent in 1997. Um, so it's not just, um, you know, whether you thrive or not, but it's really, it's about the power of being able to bring all of yourself into a room.

ADAM:
Well, it's striking to me. Everyone needs a posse around them who understands their experiences and their backgrounds. It's also interesting though, when you wrote this story literally half your life ago, and it would have been very easy to just take what worked on Broadway and do it for the film, but you didn't stop there. You rethought, and re-imagined some of the major pieces. Why?

LIN:
Well, Kiarra gets, um, one-hundred-percent of the credit for the very intelligent updates to the story and to the screenplay. I think, one, we recognize that we are, we're further along in our journey as writers as we were when we were little babies making a night in, in 2007 and 2008. And you know, the world changes and art changes with it.

Certainly I can point to a specific thing: Immigration, the debate around immigration, you know, Sunny is rapping about immigration back in 2007 in 2008, that debate only got more toxic and more divisive. Um, and so her decision to foreground that debate by having one of the characters be an undocumented citizen, I think really humanizes it and really humanizes it in a way in the best way that art can, which is now that's not some other than you've read about in the headline page. That's a character you love. The person you love, who has grown up here and spent his life here and can't imagine living anywhere else. So you can't just put it away. You can't just brush it aside in the same way.

Um, and also I think the other thing she did was very subtly, but, um, intelligently update the level of gentrification in Washington Heights. Uh, in that 2008 version, it's around the corner. It's still all Latino businesses. Um, it's here, uh, in 2020 and the question then becomes who, who survives, who adapts, who moves on.

ADAM:
It's amazing to me that not only did you do all this updating of it, but that In the Heights, wasn't an immediate sensation. Luis, you were selling tickets personally for your adult son's performance. At one point, was there a moment where you said, nah, this isn't going to work?

LUIS:
Uh, never. Uh, you know, I will do whatever after do for my kids, uh, then now and forever. Uh, and I know, uh, it was, it was what needed to be done. Uh, I pride myself to be the guy who tries to get things done. And at that point, once the money was there, uh, to take, uh, the show to the Richard Rogers, now we needed. But for the chairs, the 1200, the chairs are the Richard Rogers every single night. Uh, so then that's what needed to be done, you know? And I use every trick in my book from Bendito, my son, did this show. It could only be successful if you call them, bring your family and your friends, uh, to those that I have a little more, more precedence that you got to come and, and then just reach out to institutions. Uh, it was a show that was a wonderful show. Any of the things that people try to put on Broadway in order to make a show successful. And we know that at the end, it paid off.

ADAM:
Was there a moment that you doubted yourself or said, you know what, I'm just not sure if this is going to make it?

LIN:
There were lots of moments where I wasn't sure I'd live to see it. You know, it is, we don't talk a lot about the, the sensation of having. An entire show in your head, but it's now not yet on the stage for people to see it. It's an incredibly uncomfortable feeling. It is a, it is like feeling intellectually pregnant. It is like, it is, it is, you know, I remember Kiarra and I, we were lucky enough to get the show in the O'Neill theater center to work on it for two weeks, sort of like free workshop, lab space, unlimited coffee, unlimited copies, and. We were, we didn't sleep for two weeks. We worked so hard. We did these amazing performances. Everyone's crying after all the shows.

And our producers said to us at the end of those two weeks, it's not ready. Um, you've done good work, but it's not ready. And, uh, there's still too many storylines. I still don't know what I'm supposed to follow and you've taken steps forward and you've taken steps backward, and we think we need at least one more workshop before we get a production. And, you know, again, you forgot this whole show in your head and all it needs is an audience. All it needs is to not exist only in your head anymore. Um, that's those are the times when it's the toughest, uh, when you can see the distance between. Um, there's work that, you know, again, we're writing theater zone books, they need an audience to live, Tinkerbell needs your applause to survive. And so that distance can be very tough and very dispiriting. Um, but, but that's where you lead on your collaborators and you just keep going on my end.

LUIS:
Uh, it's it's interesting that I, I lived all of those moments. And we'll get very sad about, oh God, we're, we're not going the next step. But again, my show, my, my job it's to be the cheerleader. Sometimes Lin-Manuel tells me that, ‘Can I just spend some time in sadness? Can I just be a bit introspective about what 's happening?’ You're trying to fix it. You're trying to get it to the next level. And I, my, my wife is the person with whom I spend time fixing things and being vulnerable and being sad, but we'd make kids it's okay.
How do we fix this? How, how do I go on and shake Jeffrey Seller to move forward?

ADAM:
That's amazing.Everybody should have a parent that relentless, I think.

LIN:
Right. And then you have, but then you have to say like, no, we have to make the show better. Cause they were right. By the way, I shutter to think if the O'Neill version of In the Heights had, uh, had appeared on Broadway.It didn't have the focus it needed. We did have work to do. Um, but you can't fix a musical fast. You have to let it talk to you and tell you what it needs and that's painstaking work.

ADAM:
Welcome back to Taken For Granted, and my conversation with Lin-Manuel and Luis Miranda.

[APPLAUSE]

LIN:
Um, I’m I’m thrilled uh, the White House called me, uh, tonight, uh, because, uh, I’m actually working on a hip-hop album, uh ...

ADAM:
Lin, when you were 29, you were invited to perform at the White House with the Obamas in the audience.
And you took what looks to me like a massive risk instead of performing In the Heights, which has already been validated and. Stamped you debut a brand new song called Alexander Hamilton. What the hell were you thinking? Who does that?

LIN:
Here's what they said to me. They said we'd love for you to do something from In the Heights, or if you have anything about the American experience.I have 16 bars on the American experience. I didn't have, you can really see the finale of the song. Yeah. I wrote that for the white house itself. I just had the verses, uh, and, and the Alexander Hamilton little chorus. Um, but. It was a deadline. It forced me to finish the song. And I thought, if it doesn't work in this room, maybe I'll just throw it away. Like this, this feels like a good audience for it. I feel like, um, you know, the president has a treasury secretary he's going to relate. Um, but again, like, yes, it was a massive risk. The only people who had heard the song at that point were maybe Carol Livo, uh, who I was in the show with every night. Uh, You know, Alex L'Amour, who ended up playing piano for me, and my wife who wasn't even my wife yet.

Uh, so that was, it was certainly nerve-wracking, but it was also, it was thrilling to perform something new in that space. It was thrilling to split a van with James Earl Jones to the White House, but they could have ended there. And it would have been a great day. So, uh, I'm, I'm glad I took the risk because it was also an encapsulation of what my Hamilton experience would be. I would tell folks the idea they would laugh and I would start telling the story and then they'd go, well, what then what happened? Um, and, and that's been the experience now is that experience in many nature. And that's been the experience of Hamilton, um, ever since.

ADAM:
How did you know this was the right risk to take? I mean this in many ways, this could have been the biggest performance of your life and you could have blown it, right. It could have just bombed.

LIN:
Yeah, I honestly, um, I'm probably more timid now than I was then I think that I was, um, There's a reckless thing that happens when you're a writer, which is the song you're working on now is always your favorite song. I was really proud of what I was writing and working on. I liked it the best at that moment. Um, so it didn't feel like, uh, I didn't think about. I just never looked down. I didn't think about what would happen if it didn't come through. I just thought, well, I, this is the best thing I've written because it's the latest thing I've written. And, um, I want to show this to them.

ADAM:
Luis, did you think your son was out of his mind?

LUIS:
Uh, no, no. I never think he's out of his mind. I just think that he's nuts.
You have to remember he was on vacation. Uh, from In the Heights, when he read the Hamilton book, uh, and came, uh, to the house and said, "this is my next musical." I'm never going to say that's ridiculous. And I, I knew that he was taking the risk and the intensity the time he was singing my wife and I were there. We were just checking people's reaction in the room. I don't think that I looked at him once, I was just looking at people like they're nodding with approval or they're nodding, “what, what the fuck is he talking about?” Just trying to read the room,

ADAM:
Watching that audience is so interesting as a psychologist because Len you look very nervous in the first, maybe two, three sentences, and then you're just in the zone and the audience goes through the same transformation there. They're all looking at you. Like, what is this guy talking about? And they laughed nervously and then they're hooked. Did it feel that way? Did you feel the room change?

LIN:
Exactly that way. You've never seen me stammer as much as you have in the intro to that song. The intro was probably the most under rehearsed part of it. And, and in a lot of ways, the most important part of it, I'm setting up quite a weird pitch. Um, but I'm stammering. I'm really nervous. And the first thing I did, which was a mistake, was like lock eyes with the president of the United States. And I realized I can't look at him. That's too scary. And then I looked over and there's the first lady. And then finally, um, Michelle's mom was at the table with them as well. And I was like, Okay. I can look at it first abuela then I can look at, at first mom, she's giving me a beautiful smile and this, this is someone I can talk to. Um, but all of that is happening while I'm trying to set up the premise of the song. And then as soon as the snapping starts, I'm okay. Yeah.

LIN:
I took up a collection just to send him to the mainland. Get your education don’t forget from whence you came, and the world is gonna know your name. What’s your name, man? Alexander Hamilton.

[LAUGHTER]

ADAM:
I find this whole dynamic of creating and performing just endlessly. Interesting. As a psychologist, given that when you're the son of one psychologist and another almost psychologist, one of my biggest fears is screwing up our kids. And I wonder if you could both talk about what, what you learned and what you did to impart psychology into a young mind without, without creating a warped child?

LUIS:
Uh, I think that it's understand the first item is understand what's your role in that family? Uh, my wife, it's the one who gives nurturance. Uh, she's the one who is empathic. She's the one who can hold your hand and make you feel better. That's not who I am. And I know that that's not who I am. I'm the one who holds your hand. Uh, when he was a little boy that he wanted all still give, uh, money through every homeless person that he saw in the streets. I'm the guy who's going to hold his hand and we're going to go and put a quarter. On that. And my wife is the one who holds the hand and explains the sadness of seeing someone without a home.

So once you understand what your role in the family, you stay in your lane and you intersect when it's needed, but all the wives you try to do what you're best at and let the other take over while they're best at.

ADAM:
Lin, what was that like? Are there lessons that you learned from your psychologist, parents about managing emotions, about dealing with conflict?

LIN:
Listen, I had a, I had a DSM 4 on my pillow. I was like, ‘Oh, this is, oh, I see, I have seasonal affective disorder! That's why I'm sad while it's raining. Um, these symptoms check out!’ Um, so, uh, you know, having access to that is, is great, but I also. Um, I think, I think one of the, the good side effects of having psychologists parents is, um, you're very in touch with your feelings and you're able to name them.

One of my books growing up that I learned was not a shared childhood experience. It was not exactly Good Night Moon, it was TA for Tots: Transitional Analysis, where you talked about warm-fuzzies and your cold-pricklies, it was a book designed to sort of help you talk about feelings and then, you know, cut to me in college. And we're talking about Good Night Moon, and we're talking about, uh, you know, The Very Hungry Caterpillar rest in peace, Eric Carle. And I'm like TA for Tots? Nobody? We read it every night!

ADAM:
No scars clearly no scars from that experience. I love it. What are the other things that, that I find so interesting about the two of you is you both had prior careers in completely different worlds before you landed where you are. Uh, Luis. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about how your political experience has foreshadowed now, all the creative activism that you're doing in the art scene. Um, and Lin obviously time as an English teacher, how that continues to influence you as a creator and performer.

LUIS:
Uh, on, on, on my end, uh, it’s very very easy to work with Lin-Manuel, uh, because he, my head he's my political candidate. No. When you work with political candidates, you are helping them shine. If you have to get on camera, your candidates queued up and you're going on camera to explain and clean up. Uh, so it's, it's a similar experience. Everything that we do it's to make sure that the best Lin-Manuel comes forward. Uh, and you know, I, I continue to be involved in politics. It's just possible, uh, to separate, uh, but doing everything we can for the issues that we care about for, use the new megaphone that we have, that Lin-Manuel has that we have as a family. It's an important component of, of continuing that journey, uh, of moving the needle forward on progressive causes.

ADAM:
Lin, what about what about the interplay between teaching and creating and performing? What, what do you, what do you see from your teaching days really affecting the way that you think?

LIN:
My first job out of college was teaching seventh grade English at my old high school. Um, and it's really as a result of one of my mentors at my high school, my eighth grade English teacher, Dr. Rembert Herbert, um, is the one who noticed me writing songs in the back of English class. And said, you know, we have a student run theater program, you should write for that. You're very talented. And he was the first person outside of my family to tell me that. Um, and so as I was graduating college, I. Rung up Dr. Herbert and said, are there substitute positions available at Hunter? I'm going to be trying to make theater. I'm going to have to pay the rent somehow. Uh, and he said, actually, there's a, there's a part-time English position that's open. And so, um, I went and taught English and I think the biggest lesson I learned, um, I feel like I should have seen it because all of my favorite teachers did this, um, is you're actually your best as a teacher when you're listening. Uh, when your job is to introduce the topic and give everyone the salient details and then ask questions.

Uh, I found that the most profound breakthroughs invariably happened when the kids were learning from each other. Um, and there's a lot of lessons to take away from that in the creative. Arts space as well. Um, you are as good as the room you put yourself in. Um, and you're trying to create an environment, both in the classroom and in your artistic collaborations where the best idea in the room wins. Um, and it doesn't matter where it comes from. It doesn't matter if it's in my syllabus to give you or you've come to that realization yourself. Um, but, but fostering an environment where. Ideas are supported, uh, and the best idea in the room, uh, wins. And so that was invaluable. I really, I went into teaching thinking I was going to be a performer and I realized, oh, that part actually goes out the window and the, the part where you're listening, really listening to your students and then able to turn the conversation. That's actually, when you're doing your best work. And that's also true of acting by the way, like the actors who really listen are the most compelling.

ADAM:
Invariably, I think listening might be the most underrated skill in our lives. A hundred percent. Another topic I wanted to ask you both about is, uh, I guess what's traditionally called work-life balance, which I think is just a ridiculous concept. I don't know anybody who accomplishes anything worthwhile in steady equilibrium. And it seems to me that what we're striving for is more like rhythm, where there's a repeating pattern of different beats. Some might be job or family or friends or health or hobbies. That might vary in their duration and in their accent. And I might be stretching the music metaphor here. Uh, but I I'd be thrilled to hear both of you talk a little bit about how you think about work-life rhythm?

LUIS:
I, what I tried to do, it's every one in my life personally, it's everybody in my life work wise, I create this mesh of people who I enjoy just having coffee with and talking about current events or whatever we want to talk. And then we're going to be working together in doing a commercial or doing something that it's important. So the way in which I have been successful doing that so that I can work 24-7 it's by marrying my work and my personal life.

And quite frankly, the only relationship where that doesn't happen to the extent that the others happen, it's with my wife, because we have very different lanes and he works on his work for decades and decades. And why change it, uh, when, when he does, but I have worked with my daughter for 25 years. And I work with her every single day of my life. So that's the way I have been able to create that unbelievable song, uh, of work and family.

LIN:
We have very different positions. So I, again, like I reject the premise that the goal is to work, which was in that it's somewhere in Luis Miranda, the way I have achieved working 24-7. Um, and, but, but it is interesting, you know, my, my wife had an insight, really into like a little into the process of writing Hamilton when, when we were together and married, which was, um, life is always going to present distractions. Um, and. Uh, the best idea you had the idea to make a musical Hamilton actually happened when we were on vacation, on a pool, float with a margarita in your hand, and had a moment when your brain can kind of unplug from your day-to-day concerns and really drift.

Um, and so she just started booking us vacations. We would go, you know, borrow a friend's house out of town. She'd stay the first week with me and leave me alone for a week. Um, we'd go to, she booked us on a trip to Nevus where Alexander Hamilton was born. Um, booked us in a very nice hotel, so she could have a very nice sort of spot time while I worked on nonstop the song at the end of act one.

And then we both had a wonderful vacation, um, because I could really drift and relax. And, um, so. To me, the creativity part doesn't happen without daydreaming. Um, in my line of work, I need to daydream just like my dad said we were getting diminishing returns when I had to work on three different projects in one day. But if there is a day where it's, you know, the only thing on my schedule is really to pick up my kids and tuck them in, even though there's nothing on the schedule, I'm daydreaming, I'm thinking about that next song. I'm thinking about that next, um, creative problem that I have to solve. And so it's, it's a bit of a different, uh, ratio for me or a different rhythm to use your terminology.

ADAM:
Wow. It's been such an honor to speak with the two of you and a real delight to so much fun in closing. I would love to just ask you each, what impact do you hope In the Heights will have.

LUIS:
I think that I wanted a real opening for Latinos to be in Hollywood. Uh, I have seen, uh, the impact that it had on Broadway and how many Latinos got their first Broadway gig, uh, with In the Heights. And how many had careers in theater. Uh, I need not to be that way. Uh, there should be an In the Heights opening theaters every single week of our lives. And that's what I hope the movie.

LIN:
Yeah. It's not lost on me that at the same time In the Heights is releasing, I'm also an executive producer on a documentary on Rita Moreno who blazed a trail where there was no trail. And it was often the only Latina in productions first in the studio system. And then through the forties and fifties and sixties. Um, and, uh, as you know, I'm so glad that we have this movie that gives her her flowers because she was, she made a way where there was no way. And, um, without her or something like In the Heights doesn't exist and where it's not just one Latina story being told, but lots of stories being told.

So, you know, my hope is that in 10 years people go, ‘what was the big deal about it In the Heights?’ that would be, that would be the goal. Um, and just to say that my dad made a chocolate cake because he was bored and now I'm going to it's delicious.

ADAM:
Taken for Granted is hosted by me, Adam Grant. The show is produced by TED with Transmitter Media. Our team includes Colin Helms, Gretta Cohn, Dan O’Donnell, Constanza Gallardo, JoAnn DeLuna, Grace Rubenstein, Michelle Quint, [Banban] Cheng, and Anna Phelan. This episode was produced by James T. Green. Our show is mixed by Rick Kwan. Original music by Hansdale Hsu and Allison Leyton-Brown. For their research, Donald MacKinnon on creative architects, Nicole Stephens, Sarah Townsend, and Andrea Dittman on cultural mismatch, and my collaborator Jihae Shin on procrastination and creativity. A special thanks to Whitney Williams for her help in arranging this interview.

ADAM'S CHILD:
In the Zoom where it happened, my dad wore pajamas!