Debian Bug report logs - #518648
ucf: Diff screen is not as usable as a simple pager

Package: debconf; Maintainer for debconf is Debconf Developers <[email protected]>; Source for debconf is src:debconf (PTS, buildd, popcon).

Reported by: Tony 'Nicoya' Mantler <[email protected]>

Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 17:12:03 UTC

Severity: wishlist

Reply or subscribe to this bug.

View this report as an mbox folder, status mbox, maintainer mbox


Report forwarded to [email protected], Dpkg Developers <[email protected]>:
Bug#518648; Package dpkg. (Sat, 07 Mar 2009 17:12:05 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).


Acknowledgement sent to Tony 'Nicoya' Mantler <[email protected]>:
New Bug report received and forwarded. Copy sent to Dpkg Developers <[email protected]>. (Sat, 07 Mar 2009 17:12:05 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).


Message #5 received at [email protected] (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Tony 'Nicoya' Mantler <[email protected]>
To: Debian Bug Tracking System <[email protected]>
Subject: dpkg shows conffile diffs in awkward curses interface instead of pager
Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2009 11:10:53 -0600
Package: dpkg
Version: 1.14.25
Severity: minor

When dpkg prompts for handling a locally changed conf file, selecting "show diffs" used to bring up a diff -u in the system default pager, but now shows it in a little curses window that's very annoying to try to navigate through.

I don't recall being prompted for this configuration change when I upgraded dpkg, nor can I find how to restore the old behaviour.

-- System Information:
Debian Release: squeeze/sid
  APT prefers unstable
  APT policy: (500, 'unstable'), (101, 'experimental')
Architecture: i386 (i686)

Kernel: Linux 2.6.26-1-686-bigmem (SMP w/1 CPU core)
Locale: LANG=en_US, LC_CTYPE=en_US (charmap=ISO-8859-1)
Shell: /bin/sh linked to /bin/bash

Versions of packages dpkg depends on:
ii  coreutils                     7.1-2      The GNU core utilities
ii  libc6                         2.9-4      GNU C Library: Shared libraries
ii  lzma                          4.43-14    Compression method of 7z format in

dpkg recommends no packages.

Versions of packages dpkg suggests:
ii  apt                           0.7.20.2   Advanced front-end for dpkg

-- no debconf information




Information forwarded to [email protected], Dpkg Developers <[email protected]>:
Bug#518648; Package dpkg. (Sat, 07 Mar 2009 17:48:03 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).


Acknowledgement sent to Raphael Hertzog <[email protected]>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Dpkg Developers <[email protected]>. (Sat, 07 Mar 2009 17:48:03 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).


Message #10 received at [email protected] (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Raphael Hertzog <[email protected]>
To: Tony 'Nicoya' Mantler <[email protected]>, [email protected]
Subject: Re: Bug#518648: dpkg shows conffile diffs in awkward curses interface instead of pager
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 18:45:25 +0100
On Sat, 07 Mar 2009, Tony 'Nicoya' Mantler wrote:
> Package: dpkg
> Version: 1.14.25
> Severity: minor
> 
> When dpkg prompts for handling a locally changed conf file, selecting
> "show diffs" used to bring up a diff -u in the system default pager, but
> now shows it in a little curses window that's very annoying to try to
> navigate through.

Nothing changed here. It's likely that your default pager changed instead.

Do you have an environment variable PAGER ?
What is the currently selected pager in the alternatives ? 

$ ls -al /etc/alternatives/pager
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 13 fév  5 18:25 /etc/alternatives/pager -> /usr/bin/less

Cheers,
-- 
Raphaël Hertzog

Contribuez à Debian et gagnez un cahier de l'admin Debian Lenny :
http://www.ouaza.com/wp/2009/03/02/contribuer-a-debian-gagner-un-livre/




Information forwarded to [email protected], Dpkg Developers <[email protected]>:
Bug#518648; Package dpkg. (Sat, 07 Mar 2009 19:54:04 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).


Acknowledgement sent to Tony Mantler <[email protected]>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Dpkg Developers <[email protected]>. (Sat, 07 Mar 2009 19:54:04 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).


Message #15 received at [email protected] (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Tony Mantler <[email protected]>
To: Raphael Hertzog <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Bug#518648: dpkg shows conffile diffs in awkward curses interface instead of pager
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 13:51:12 -0600
On 7-Mar-09, at 11:45 AM, Raphael Hertzog wrote:

> On Sat, 07 Mar 2009, Tony 'Nicoya' Mantler wrote:
>> Package: dpkg
>> Version: 1.14.25
>> Severity: minor
>>
>> When dpkg prompts for handling a locally changed conf file, selecting
>> "show diffs" used to bring up a diff -u in the system default  
>> pager, but
>> now shows it in a little curses window that's very annoying to try to
>> navigate through.
>
> Nothing changed here. It's likely that your default pager changed  
> instead.
>
> Do you have an environment variable PAGER ?

Nope

> What is the currently selected pager in the alternatives ?
>
> $ ls -al /etc/alternatives/pager
> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 13 fév  5 18:25 /etc/alternatives/pager -> / 
> usr/bin/less


lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 13 2008-09-27 12:29 /etc/alternatives/pager -> / 
usr/bin/less

--
Tony 'Nicoya' Mantler - Master of Code-fu
-- [email protected] -- http://www.ubb.ca/ --







Information forwarded to [email protected], Dpkg Developers <[email protected]>:
Bug#518648; Package dpkg. (Sat, 07 Mar 2009 20:33:06 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).


Acknowledgement sent to Raphael Hertzog <[email protected]>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Dpkg Developers <[email protected]>. (Sat, 07 Mar 2009 20:33:06 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).


Message #20 received at [email protected] (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Raphael Hertzog <[email protected]>
To: Tony Mantler <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Bug#518648: dpkg shows conffile diffs in awkward curses interface instead of pager
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 21:30:51 +0100
On Sat, 07 Mar 2009, Tony Mantler wrote:
>> Do you have an environment variable PAGER ?
>
> Nope
>
>> What is the currently selected pager in the alternatives ?
>
> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 13 2008-09-27 12:29 /etc/alternatives/pager -> / 
> usr/bin/less

Maybe you have a special less configuration? Any LESS* variable in the
environment?

What processes do you see in "ps auxf" while dpkg displays a diff?

Cheers,
-- 
Raphaël Hertzog

Contribuez à Debian et gagnez un cahier de l'admin Debian Lenny :
http://www.ouaza.com/wp/2009/03/02/contribuer-a-debian-gagner-un-livre/




Information forwarded to [email protected], Dpkg Developers <[email protected]>:
Bug#518648; Package dpkg. (Sun, 08 Mar 2009 13:51:03 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).


Acknowledgement sent to Raphael Hertzog <[email protected]>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Dpkg Developers <[email protected]>. (Sun, 08 Mar 2009 13:51:03 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).


Message #25 received at [email protected] (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Raphael Hertzog <[email protected]>
To: Tony Mantler <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Bug#518648: dpkg shows conffile diffs in awkward curses interface instead of pager
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 14:48:11 +0100
On Sat, 07 Mar 2009, Tony Mantler wrote:
>
> On 7-Mar-09, at 2:30 PM, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
>
>> What processes do you see in "ps auxf" while dpkg displays a diff?
>
> Is there a quick way to force dpkg into displaying a configfile diff?

Not really, purge a package with a configuration file, manuall create one
of the configuration file of that package and reinstall that package.

Suppose you have acct not installed:
# echo "something" >/etc/default/acct
# aptitude install acct
[ dpkg ask conffile question ]
# dpkg -P acct

-- 
Raphaël Hertzog

Contribuez à Debian et gagnez un cahier de l'admin Debian Lenny :
http://www.ouaza.com/wp/2009/03/02/contribuer-a-debian-gagner-un-livre/




Information forwarded to [email protected], Dpkg Developers <[email protected]>:
Bug#518648; Package dpkg. (Sun, 08 Mar 2009 13:57:12 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).


Acknowledgement sent to Raphael Hertzog <[email protected]>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Dpkg Developers <[email protected]>. (Sun, 08 Mar 2009 13:57:12 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).


Message #30 received at [email protected] (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Raphael Hertzog <[email protected]>
To: Tony Mantler <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Bug#518648: dpkg shows conffile diffs in awkward curses interface instead of pager
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 14:54:53 +0100
Another simple question: does "diff -Nu /etc/passwd /etc/passwd- | pager"
launch the same ncurses interface that you believe to not be
less ?

What does "which pager" gives on your machine ?

Cheers,
-- 
Raphaël Hertzog

Contribuez à Debian et gagnez un cahier de l'admin Debian Lenny :
http://www.ouaza.com/wp/2009/03/02/contribuer-a-debian-gagner-un-livre/




Information forwarded to [email protected], Dpkg Developers <[email protected]>:
Bug#518648; Package dpkg. (Sun, 08 Mar 2009 16:03:03 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).


Acknowledgement sent to Tony Mantler <[email protected]>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Dpkg Developers <[email protected]>. (Sun, 08 Mar 2009 16:03:03 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).


Message #35 received at [email protected] (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Tony Mantler <[email protected]>
To: Raphael Hertzog <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Bug#518648: dpkg shows conffile diffs in awkward curses interface instead of pager
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 11:01:32 -0500
On 8-Mar-09, at 8:54 AM, Raphael Hertzog wrote:

> Another simple question: does "diff -Nu /etc/passwd /etc/passwd- |  
> pager"
> launch the same ncurses interface that you believe to not be
> less ?

That gives less as expected, not the ncurses window.


> What does "which pager" gives on your machine ?


/usr/bin/pager, which diverts to /etc/alternatives/pager which points  
to /usr/bin/less.


--
Tony 'Nicoya' Mantler - Master of Code-fu
-- [email protected] -- http://www.ubb.ca/ --







Information forwarded to [email protected], Dpkg Developers <[email protected]>:
Bug#518648; Package dpkg. (Sun, 08 Mar 2009 16:18:03 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).


Acknowledgement sent to Tony Mantler <[email protected]>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Dpkg Developers <[email protected]>. (Sun, 08 Mar 2009 16:18:03 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).


Message #40 received at [email protected] (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Tony Mantler <[email protected]>
To: Raphael Hertzog <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Bug#518648: dpkg shows conffile diffs in awkward curses interface instead of pager
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 11:16:44 -0500
On 8-Mar-09, at 8:48 AM, Raphael Hertzog wrote:

> On Sat, 07 Mar 2009, Tony Mantler wrote:
>>
>> On 7-Mar-09, at 2:30 PM, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
>>
>>> What processes do you see in "ps auxf" while dpkg displays a diff?
>>
>> Is there a quick way to force dpkg into displaying a configfile diff?
>
> Not really, purge a package with a configuration file, manuall  
> create one
> of the configuration file of that package and reinstall that package.


Ok, here we go.

root     11874  6.9  4.6  94168 48324 pts/6    Sl+  11:10   0:06   
|           \_ aptitude
root     12030  0.4  0.4   5776  4240 pts/8    Ss+  11:12   0:00   
|               \_ /usr/bin/dpkg --status-fd 26 --configure dovecot- 
common dovecot-imapd
root     12031  0.0  0.1   2968  1268 pts/8    S+   11:12   0:00   
|                   \_ /bin/sh /var/lib/dpkg/info/dovecot- 
common.postinst configure 1:1.1.11-4
root     12032  2.2  0.9  11728  9748 pts/8    S+   11:12   0:00   
|                       \_ /usr/bin/perl -w /usr/share/debconf/ 
frontend /usr/bin/ucf /usr/share/dovecot/dovecot.conf /etc/dovecot/ 
dovecot.conf
root     12058  0.0  0.1   3076  1436 pts/8    S+   11:12   0:00   
|                           \_ /bin/bash /usr/bin/ucf /usr/share/ 
dovecot/dovecot.conf /etc/dovecot/dovecot.conf
root     12087  0.0  0.1   3936  1848 pts/8    S+   11:12   0:00   
|                           \_ whiptail --backtitle Package  
configuration --title Modified configuration file --output-fd 11 -- 
nocancel --default-item keep the local version currently installed -- 
menu A new version of configuration file /etc/dovecot/dovecot.conf is  
available, but the version installed currently has been locally  
modified.??What would you like to do about dovecot.conf? 15 143 5 --  
install the package maintainer's version  keep the local version  
currently installed  show the differences between the versions  show a  
side-by-side difference between the versions  start a new shell to  
examine the situation

Strangely it shows this curses interface when I upgrade dovecot-imapd,  
but when I tried it on python-moinmoin it showed the regular terminal/ 
less interface.


--
Tony 'Nicoya' Mantler - Master of Code-fu
-- [email protected] -- http://www.ubb.ca/ --







Information forwarded to [email protected], Dpkg Developers <[email protected]>:
Bug#518648; Package dpkg. (Sun, 08 Mar 2009 16:24:11 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).


Acknowledgement sent to Raphael Hertzog <[email protected]>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Dpkg Developers <[email protected]>. (Sun, 08 Mar 2009 16:24:11 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).


Message #45 received at [email protected] (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Raphael Hertzog <[email protected]>
To: Tony Mantler <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: Bug#518648: dpkg shows conffile diffs in awkward curses interface instead of pager
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 17:22:12 +0100
reassign 518648 ucf
severity 518648 wishlist
retitle 518648 ucf: Diff screen is not as usable as a simple pager
thanks

On Sun, 08 Mar 2009, Tony Mantler wrote:
>> Another simple question: does "diff -Nu /etc/passwd /etc/passwd- |  
>> pager" launch the same ncurses interface that you believe to not be
>> less ?
>
> That gives less as expected, not the ncurses window.

I think I have understood your problem and it's not dpkg that is at fault.
It's "ucf" that displayed that window.

Many package use ucf to handle configuration files outside of dpkg's
system and that's what you saw during the upgrade. For example
samba-common uses ucf.

I doubt you saw such a window when dpkg displayed its traditional
prompt (which is in plain text on the standard output and not in
a debconf dialog).

Cheers,
-- 
Raphaël Hertzog

Contribuez à Debian et gagnez un cahier de l'admin Debian Lenny :
http://www.ouaza.com/wp/2009/03/02/contribuer-a-debian-gagner-un-livre/




Bug reassigned from package `dpkg' to `ucf'. Request was from Raphael Hertzog <[email protected]> to [email protected]. (Sun, 08 Mar 2009 16:24:13 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).


Severity set to `wishlist' from `minor' Request was from Raphael Hertzog <[email protected]> to [email protected]. (Sun, 08 Mar 2009 16:24:13 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).


Changed Bug title to `ucf: Diff screen is not as usable as a simple pager' from `dpkg shows conffile diffs in awkward curses interface instead of pager'. Request was from Raphael Hertzog <[email protected]> to [email protected]. (Sun, 08 Mar 2009 16:24:14 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).


Information forwarded to [email protected], Manoj Srivastava <[email protected]>:
Bug#518648; Package ucf. (Sun, 08 Mar 2009 16:27:06 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).


Acknowledgement sent to Raphael Hertzog <[email protected]>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Manoj Srivastava <[email protected]>. (Sun, 08 Mar 2009 16:27:07 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).


Message #56 received at [email protected] (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Raphael Hertzog <[email protected]>
To: Tony Mantler <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Bug#518648: dpkg shows conffile diffs in awkward curses interface instead of pager
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 17:25:57 +0100
On Sun, 08 Mar 2009, Tony Mantler wrote:
> Ok, here we go.
[...]
> /usr/bin/ucf /usr/share/dovecot/dovecot.conf /etc/dovecot/dovecot.conf
> root     12058  0.0  0.1   3076  1436 pts/8    S+   11:12   0:00  |       
>                     \_ /bin/bash /usr/bin/ucf /usr/share/ 
> dovecot/dovecot.conf /etc/dovecot/dovecot.conf

So like I said, it's not dpkg, it's ucf. I have reassigned the bug to ucf,
maybe they can improve the appearance of the diff screen.

> Strangely it shows this curses interface when I upgrade dovecot-imapd,  
> but when I tried it on python-moinmoin it showed the regular terminal/ 
> less interface.

It's not strange, it's normal. But indeed it's not very intuitive for the
user and there are plans to integrate ucf's features into dpkg to avoid
such discrepancies in the future but we're not there yet.

Cheers,
-- 
Raphaël Hertzog

Contribuez à Debian et gagnez un cahier de l'admin Debian Lenny :
http://www.ouaza.com/wp/2009/03/02/contribuer-a-debian-gagner-un-livre/




Information forwarded to [email protected], Manoj Srivastava <[email protected]>:
Bug#518648; Package ucf. (Sun, 08 Mar 2009 16:33:02 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).


Acknowledgement sent to Tony Mantler <[email protected]>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Manoj Srivastava <[email protected]>. (Sun, 08 Mar 2009 16:33:02 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).


Message #61 received at [email protected] (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Tony Mantler <[email protected]>
To: Raphael Hertzog <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Bug#518648: dpkg shows conffile diffs in awkward curses interface instead of pager
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 11:31:56 -0500
On 8-Mar-09, at 11:25 AM, Raphael Hertzog wrote:

> On Sun, 08 Mar 2009, Tony Mantler wrote:
>> Ok, here we go.
> [...]
>> /usr/bin/ucf /usr/share/dovecot/dovecot.conf /etc/dovecot/ 
>> dovecot.conf
>> root     12058  0.0  0.1   3076  1436 pts/8    S+   11:12   0:00  |
>>                    \_ /bin/bash /usr/bin/ucf /usr/share/
>> dovecot/dovecot.conf /etc/dovecot/dovecot.conf
>
> So like I said, it's not dpkg, it's ucf. I have reassigned the bug  
> to ucf,
> maybe they can improve the appearance of the diff screen.
>
>> Strangely it shows this curses interface when I upgrade dovecot- 
>> imapd,
>> but when I tried it on python-moinmoin it showed the regular  
>> terminal/
>> less interface.
>
> It's not strange, it's normal. But indeed it's not very intuitive  
> for the
> user and there are plans to integrate ucf's features into dpkg to  
> avoid
> such discrepancies in the future but we're not there yet.


Ok, thanks. That makes more sense now. I hope ucf will soon gain the  
option to show diffs in the non-curses style.


--
Tony 'Nicoya' Mantler - Master of Code-fu
-- [email protected] -- http://www.ubb.ca/ --







Information forwarded to [email protected]:
Bug#518648; Package ucf. (Sun, 08 Mar 2009 17:03:03 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).


Acknowledgement sent to Manoj Srivastava <[email protected]>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. (Sun, 08 Mar 2009 17:03:03 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).


Message #66 received at [email protected] (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Manoj Srivastava <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], [email protected], Tony Mantler <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Bug#518648: dpkg shows conffile diffs in awkward curses interface instead of pager
Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 11:51:24 -0500
Package: ucf
reassign 518648 debconf
thanks

Hi,

        As dictated by the Debian technical policy, ucf uses debconf to
 mediate all interactions with the user. Debconf has different
 front-ends that can be used to set the user interaction experience (and
 I think you might want the readline front-end, for a non-ncurses
 interface). In any case, complaints about and improvements to the
 interface can be addressed in the package responsible for the
 interaction, namely, debconf, hence reassigning.

        manoj
-- 
Ambidextrous, adj.: Able to pick with equal skill a right-hand pocket or
a left. Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Manoj Srivastava <[email protected]> <http://www.debian.org/~srivasta/>  
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C




Bug reassigned from package `ucf' to `debconf'. Request was from Manoj Srivastava <[email protected]> to [email protected]. (Sun, 08 Mar 2009 17:03:04 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).


Information forwarded to [email protected], Debconf Developers <[email protected]>:
Bug#518648; Package debconf. (Fri, 10 Feb 2012 23:09:03 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).


Acknowledgement sent to Dmitry Semyonov <[email protected]>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Debconf Developers <[email protected]>. (Fri, 10 Feb 2012 23:09:03 GMT) (full text, mbox, link).


Message #73 received at [email protected] (full text, mbox, reply):

From: Dmitry Semyonov <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Inconsistent conffile conflicts handling
Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 02:03:58 +0300
"dpkg-reconfigure debconf" is the answer. (Select readline frontend.)
I would like to see this information on every poorly designed dialog
produced by debconf, with ability to switch to readline frontend in
runtime.

P.S.
  I was also unpleasantly surprised in the past by ncurses dialogs
that started to appear in more and more packages, breaking consistent
experience of conffile conflicts resolution. The worst thing is that
you cannot even always resort to pure shell from those dialogs due to
some weird xterm-related errors hidden by re-appearing dialog. I.e.
you cannot move forward in complex cases when you really need to
merge, and there is no graceful abort option. The problem is sometimes
(often?) exaggerated by illogical impossible-to-guess names and
locations of new conffiles, (provided by ucf?). Absolute usability
failure.

-- 
...Bye..Dmitry.




Send a report that this bug log contains spam.


Debian bug tracking system administrator <[email protected]>. Last modified: Thu Nov 14 10:18:09 2024; Machine Name: buxtehude

Debian Bug tracking system

Debbugs is free software and licensed under the terms of the GNU Public License version 2. The current version can be obtained from https://bugs.debian.org/debbugs-source/.

Copyright © 1999 Darren O. Benham, 1997,2003 nCipher Corporation Ltd, 1994-97 Ian Jackson, 2005-2017 Don Armstrong, and many other contributors.