Igniting Leadership: Workplace Options Employee Engagement Summit

00:00:10 - Jackie Ferguson

Welcome to season 10 of Diversity beyond the Checkbox, proudly presented by the Diversity Movement. I'm your host Jackie Ferguson, author, business leader and human rights advocate. In this podcast, we're diving deep into the stories of trailblazers, game changers and glass ceiling breakers who share insights and professional success, success and personal development. Thank you for being part of this amazing community. Enjoy the show. Hello and thank you for joining Igniting employee engagement, leadership and governance strategies for a thriving workforce. I'm so excited to be hosting this live stream episode of Diversity beyond the Checkbox podcast, named in the top 100 management podcasts in the world. I'm joined by two former guests of the show that have contributed to its recognition for global thought leadership. Let me introduce them. Sunainaina Sinha Haldea is the Global Head of Private Capital Equity at Raymond James. She was named one of the top 50 most influential people in Private Equity by Daryl Jones, Private Equity News for two consecutive years and one of the 20 trailblazing women in private equity in 2023. Sunainaina is an investor and serves as Chairman of the Board of Directors of SFC Energy ag, a publicly listed clean energy business. She serves as Chairman of the Board of Mindful Chef Served that was sold to Nestle and Chairman of the Board of Bear Corso to United Fitness Brands. Sunainaina serves on the Board of the Stanford Institution for Economic Policy Research and the Stanford Lead Council. As the Trustee of the Stanford UK Foundation. Sunainaina is a regular contributor on the financial markets and private equity on cnbc, Bloomberg BBC and is often quoted in the media on financial markets and private equity. And Joe Davis, Managing Director and Senior Partner at Boston Consulting Group. Joe serves as chair of BCG's center for Inclusion and Equity, where he oversees partnerships with organizations to help build inclusive cultures, deliver social impact, create business value, and drive systemic change. Joe launched BCG's Racial Equity Task Force in 2020, which has been instrumental in their advancement of diversity, equity and inclusion. Additionally, Joe was a founding member of the CEO Action for Diversity and Inclusion and has served on its Steering Committee since its inception in 2017. Joe has been with BCG for 34 years. During that time, he co founded and led multiple offices and practices until his appointment as Regional Chair of BCG North America, where he was responsible for the firm's operations in the United States, Canada and Mexico and served on BCG's operating and executive committees. Wow. Sunainaina and Joe, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm so excited about this conversation.

00:03:33 - Sunaina Sinha Haldea

Thank you for having us and for reading all of that out.

00:03:37 - Joe Davis

Thank you very much. You didn't do the condensed spurs injured. I didn't.

00:03:42 - Jackie Ferguson

You know, the reason is because you all have such amazing experience. And I really just wanted the folks on the call to know how accomplished you are and how much we're about to get from this amazing session. So let's jump into it. Employee engagement has been part of leadership vocabulary for more than three decades. Research center organizations have shared studies confirming that lack of employee engagement has severe effects on the bottom line of your business. We're hearing terms like quiet quitting, quiet vacationing, and we're aware of the struggle in retaining talented employees. But it's been less clear how employee engagement is defined exactly. And what it takes to grow engagement within organizations. So I'll start with this question for both of you. How would you each define employee engagement, and why do you believe it plays such a crucial role in driving organizational success? Jo, would you like to start?

00:04:51 - Joe Davis

Okay. First, we could. We could define that a lot of ways. All day long, I guess. For me, what I would say is if people are engaged, they are truly feeling connected to the organization, you know, both personally and deeply, not just like a job and a paycheck. And by. And by then, I made his purpose his issue. I was on a college campus recently and talking about someone at a summer job, and I said, I really like the company's purpose. We always hear they say that in research, but actually had a kid say it to me, I thought, that's impressive. You know, the goals and then, of course, the values. And I think importantly, leadership. You know, if you. You just see leadership as this distant thing and not as a human thing. Human. Who's trying to connect to you and your humanity. I think it's tough. The other thing I'll just say quickly is, you know, I also think, of course you have to be connected to one's colleagues. You can't just be a cog in an organization wheel, you know. And then finally, I think when people feel most connected, they actually are, you know, seen people ask questions of them and people listen to them. And I'll just cite very quickly, Google did a study. They looked at, talked to 80,000 or looked at 80,000 of their managers. Google is. And they said the best managers. The top thing is they coached well how they coach well, they engage with their people and how they do that, they ask questions and they listen. They ask questions and they listened. I think that's quite important part of really being engaged.

00:06:18 - Jackie Ferguson

That's Information. Joe Sunaina agree with all of that.

00:06:22 - Sunaina Sinha Haldea

I think that there is this movement over the last couple of generations of people entering the workforce towards greater connection and greater empathy, right? They no one wants to feel, and it's no longer good enough to feel that I get a paycheck here and I leave here and that's all I people want to feel. It's back to that these wonderful words that we all say. But it truly matters to feel meaning, to feel connection. And people are striving for that, not just in other parts of their lives, but in the workplace. And companies that can show empathy and connect and build connection and talk about the human things that matter to people are the ones that end up winning in this new generation, in this new paradigm. So I think that for me is engagement. It's all about authentic connections and in a very real way, making your employees feel that they are being heard, that there is a connection between employer and employee. But within the guardrails of the limitations of how much you can adopt of what you're hearing, but at least you're being heard and you're being seen. You're no longer just a number. There's no such thing as lifetime employment anymore. Right. Despite all of the increase in the interest rates, you still have a very tight labor market, which means companies have to do whatever they can to retain talent, but especially their top talent.

00:07:50 - Jackie Ferguson

Absolutely. You know, and I think that one of the issues, right, one of the challenges is that for so many of us Gen Xers, right, that's not how we learn to work, right? Because that's not what we saw modeled as leadership. And so this is new, this is emerging, evolving. And so we're going to have to make those shifts as leaders. And from your experience leading at BCG and Raymond James, what are the most effective strategies that leaders can implement to foster a highly motivated and engaged workforce and retain top talent? Zena, we'll start with you on this one.

00:08:36 - Sunaina Sinha Haldea

For me, the strategy that has been the most effective is to identify the value in your culture that you want to hold people by, that you are happy to live with and code that into how the business is measured and how people are measured. Right. I have a two by two that I put up as many times a year as I can, and it's certainly put up at year end reviews where we measure people by the performance KPIs and outcomes that we care about. Right. In finance, those can often be measured by dollars, but in different industries, it's different outcomes that you're measuring.

00:09:11 - Jackie Ferguson

But.

00:09:11 - Sunaina Sinha Haldea

And that's the Y axis. But the X axis is culture. It's a set of values that we want people to live by. And that will also be measured. So you'll be plotted on this two by two. Low high on performance, low high on culture and values. And that's how top talent will be identified and that's how top talent will be reiterated. And it's important to live by those values yourself as a leader and as a business but also expect that of your people and ensure that you're self selecting group of people who believe in those values and they have input into what those values are and what determines best practices according to that. But that has been a very salient way that you've got to talk the talk, walk the walk and live by it day by day. It's not just something you put up and say oh I'll do a town hall once a quarter and that'll check that engagement box. Thank you very much. It has to be part of your daily showing up as people in the workplace.

00:10:13 - Jackie Ferguson

Sunainaina, that's so true. And you know one of the things that you said was checking a box. And I think that employees can feel when those leaders are simply checking a box versus fostering those authentic connections. Um, you know it's important to have a relationship with your employees that feel real, that feel valuable to you and to them. And you know it's. It's also important to check in with them not only on how they're doing in their job, you know, in those tasks but how they're doing personally because it, it all interplays in how engaged and how well they're doing how productive they are in their job. Joe, what would you add Clip.

00:11:04 - Joe Davis

What's your ad's just going to be maybe embellished because Indiana just said it all. I do think you know if I succinctly listening to you and thinking of some of the things BCG even does. We our highest rewarded and most respected officers are of course highly commercial but they also have the highest upward feedback. We had this matrix and the North Star and we have 360 feedback. Upward feedback is anonymous. The best are have high upward feedback and high commercial. And if you actually, actually don't have good upward feedback three years in a row, it's a little rocky for you which bring your point about metrics. I mean we can all talk it and we do all talk it but actually putting it, you know, putting it where it matters can make a big difference. I think the other thing just it's important we talk about connecting, but also you need to connect in a way that they hear you. And I'll tell a little story. Joaquin, do Otto. See, OJ Likes to use this thing called friend testing and group testing. If he's going to do a town hall, as you said, he wants to make sure they understand, hear the words he's saying. Not just that he's saying the words and he'll ask. He said when he first got the job, he asked a friend, hey, what are people saying I'm saying out there? So, sir, you want to cut costs. So I never said that. I said I want to deep decent. I want to simplify this complicated matrix so it can all be more effective. Oh, yeah, that's what you said. You want to cut costs. It was stunning to him. So it's not just, you know, connecting or speaking to or town hall with your. I'm just to add to the team, but also actually make sure your messages are landing in ways that they actually hear them, not the way you think you're saying them.

00:12:46 - Jackie Ferguson

Jo, that's such an important point. And communication is integral to successful business in any part of that business. I really like that you said, what are people saying that I'm saying? Right? Because that's, that is. That's an amazing question because it's not necessarily what you think you're communicating. How is that being received? Right. And so that is so important. I think that's a valuable takeaway for us as leaders. What are people saying that I'm saying? Thank you for sharing that. Those points are so great. So great. As BCG has a focus on understanding the future of work, what trends do you foresee shaping employee engagement strategies in the next five to ten years? Joe?

00:13:41 - Joe Davis

Okay, now this one, I did actually cheat. Go talk to some BCG experts on this topic in our organization practice. And it's actually interesting. Of course, I had a boss or leader who always said, joe, what are you doing? Talking about the future too much. Nobody really knows the future, but let's still speculate a bit or even if you look today, you know, this, this session has the word engagement on it, which is critical. But I was talking to some of my colleagues, and one of the women who's deep is on the topic. She's, you know, Joe, gate was essential, but joy is critical, which is a little bit true of saints and, you know, people. And by that I mean people find their work interesting, rewarding, fun, whatever word you want. You know, it's not just a rote Thing. I'll tell you a story. BCG did most of the work. Well, we did it with treasury and some banks, the auto bailout, Obama's auto bailout. But anything's written. I think we wrote that team. As I talked to the leader of that team on a Sunday afternoon, I said, wait, calling me on Sunday. So we just got off. So what do you mean, just got off? He said, well, Joe, we work 16 hours a day and nine, eight hours on Saturday and seven hours or, you know, five hours on Sunday. So holy moly, how come no one's complaining to me? I was running the northeast system, but everybody was loving what they were doing. So you worked out and he could tell the president, United States closed GM or not. So that's a pretty cool project. But it just shows that if people feel really engaged and not engaged, if they feel like they're. They have to be engaged too, but actually value in their work, enjoy their work, et cetera. And we did. We did some work that I think it was 11,000 people around the world, those who said they found joy in their work are 50% less likely to leave. You know, both of you have mentioned the importance of retention. And, you know, there, if you think about companies, this woman said, you know, Joe, we have radical client customer service focus, which is critical, but what about radical employee, employee focus, man, you know, how are they really feeling? What are they, you know, et cetera, et cetera? I think Costco actually does think that way. She gave me this example, and their retention or their attrition, 7% and 7% of retail is unheard of.

00:15:47 - Jackie Ferguson

Right?

00:15:49 - Joe Davis

So I think one, this is probably today, and it ties us what you both said about how people need to feel connected to their work and engage and feel human. But the joy aspect is probably going to be more and more critical. And we all know it, but do we really focus on it as leaders as much as we should? I mean, like, when I like my job. But are you really thinking about that as hard as you might, Joe, that's.

00:16:15 - Jackie Ferguson

You know, I love that. Joy in your work is not something we hear.

00:16:19 - Joe Davis

No, I never heard it before.

00:16:21 - Jackie Ferguson

The workplace. And so, you know, how do we begin to foster that for our teams? I think that that's so important. You know, there are studies that say that happy employees in the workplace are 13% more productive. And that is significant if you. That's about an hour a day of more productive work when you have that joy. And so that's so important because more productivity with no overhead is more Profitability. So I love that.

00:17:00 - Joe Davis

And when people are happier working, that's all we need to say.

00:17:04 - Jackie Ferguson

Absolutely. Absolutely. Sunainaina, how can governance structure support or hinder employee engagement? And what steps can companies take to align their governance with employee motivation and well being?

00:17:20 - Sunaina Sinha Haldea

So there's lots of different governance models out there, right? And we're not here to say this one's better or that one's worse. Eventually they all fall into some kind of hierarchy. And all types of hierarchy have managers. I think the most important thing companies can focus on is management talent. Are you a good manager? How many industries do Joe and I know, right, where if you're a really good producer, you are now in charge of people without any account for whether you know how to work with people, manage people, care for people or not. It's not often a metric to whether someone's promoted or not, and it absolutely should be. Give some leadership and management are two very different things. Right? A great leader does not need to be necessarily a great manager of the rank and file folks. Okay? But you absolutely need good management in whatever your governance structure. So my call to action for companies is to focus on that management cohort. Because all of the stuff that we're talking about in terms of engagement, well being, joy, empathy, real connection, authenticity, that's only a person capable of someone who is able to deliver that on behalf of your company. So who are those people? And there's some wonderful case studies out for there as to how companies do train up their management cohort to manage in a way that aligns with values and not necessarily focus on the top producers always being in management and leadership positions. I think that's the first call to action. Then below that is, okay, how do you arm these people with the tools to then use in an effective way with the people that they're managing, especially the newer generation that's coming into the workforce. And that's where I think a greatly underutilized toolkit is. Coaching. Right. I think more and more people are using coaching, but it's often on their own dimes. And it's often because you've done something wrong. You've fallen off the guardrails, you've gone off the other side of the path. And then the company's saying, all right, and I'm guilty of this too. That's when I then introduced coaching, say, hey, you'd benefit from a coach. Now go get some coaching. Why not think about it proactively? Nobody's born a manager. No one's born how to lead. You really Very few people are, are born to lead, let's put it that way. It's often a muscle you build over years and decades. So how about we get in front of this and if we have someone in a management state taking care of enlarged cohorts of people, you get in front of that and offer them the help they need to think about what are the good ways of managing and leading in this day and age and what are not so good ways. So those would be some of the things I would offer. It's not about whether you a matrix model or a line management model or what does your governance chart look like. It's about the people who then have to then, on your behalf, on your company's behalf, go ahead and deliver that management muscle to people.

00:20:31 - Jackie Ferguson

Sunainaina, that's so Right. And you know, when you started your answer, you said people are promoted based on being excellent individual contributors. Right. But there's, there's not a pull aside that says, okay, let me teach you how to lead people. And I think that's a significant miss. Right? Because being an excellent individual contributor doesn't always translate to being a good leader or a good manager. And so as organizational leaders, how do we begin to create those professional development opportunities for our emerging leaders, emerging managers, to train them early on as they're moving into those roles. Because it's not just, you know, this is what I'm responsible for. You're now responsible for other folks work, other folks feeling of well, being in the workplace. And so, you know, how do you begin to train those emerging leaders to be good managers and good leaders of people? And I think that's important.

00:21:50 - Sunaina Sinha Haldea

I'll add very quickly, Jackie, because it's so important you as a manager, I feel that the, as a manager, I am responsible for a number of people's human journeys, their lives that they spend with us. It's a huge responsibility and a privilege and deliver that as your best self. If you think about it, we spend most of our working, our waking hours in the workplace and most of our lives working. So therefore, most of your human journey is spent in this structure, right? With a manager, if you are that manager, I feel it, it's a huge responsibility for me to show up as the best possible version of that role I can because I'm responsible for the human journey through.

00:22:34 - Jackie Ferguson

Yes, I love that. Zenaina, thank you for sharing that. That's so important in the current landscape of remote and hybrid work models. And this question will be for both of you. How have you seen employee engagement evolve and Then what unique challenges and opportunities does this new work environment present for maintaining high levels of engagement? Joe, we'll start with you on this one.

00:23:02 - Joe Davis

Well, it's just, well maybe hopefully it's becoming less the question of the hour pretty soon here but this is of course always the question of the hour. I'm actually quite curious to see what is it? January 1, Amazon says five days a week in the office just to see how that, what that means more in particular across the west coast and the other tech companies. Well of course this I mean is evolving a lot post Covid and I will say one thing wonderful is that I think you know, I don't like to say the word hybrid anymore. I like to say flexible. You know what was, I don't know, you know, I know how old I am. What you used to have to go to work and your spouse was at work and then the plumber came at 10 o'clock and now what were you going to do? Because no one was there for the plumber or whatever. You're just stuck and you got work to get up. Well now you could say hey, the plumbers come in. Do you mind if I work from home in the morning? And most places say fine. Oh and they know you'll be productive but that's a little different than I. But that's flexible. I think that you know in that same survey we, we asked people about this working with each other, engage, et cetera and nearly half of them said they, most of them said 40% of their work is done better when they're with people co located face to face, collaborative. So it can't be everybody at home and it, and it's not but it was also interesting I thought in one one kind of evolution probably come is most of them had no choice as to when, how and where they worked with their teams. It was mandated to them, you know, Tuesday, Wednesday 3rd, whatever it might be. It was you know only small choice group of them really figured out to the humanity how do we as a human team engage most effectively. So I think you know this will, this will continue to evolve. I hope the flexibility part doesn't go away. I just, I have four children and they're all in this age group and it's so wonderful because inflexibility but I think, I hope management doesn't. We'll see where the answer link but just say no, no, no, I want you here on Tuesday. You know, that's it, that's just maybe that's fine but I don't know I Don't think then Monday and what you know, so either this will continue to move, I think as much as it respects the individual, both and the desire and the need to collaborate. And if they're saying half their time they should be collaborating, let me do whatever I want. Whatever I want doesn't fly either.

00:25:14 - Jackie Ferguson

Yeah, that makes sense, Zenaina.

00:25:17 - Sunaina Sinha Haldea

I think that's exactly right. All I'll do is build on it and say balance is the name of the game, right? You want to ensure there is flexibility on offer, but there is no substitute for 3D energy. All we all know that, right. When you meet someone in person, the energy and the charisma, you feel you want that as part of your working life as well. But you know, I am on board of the Stanford Institute for Economic Policy and Research and we have a phenomenal professor there, Nicholas Bloom, who's a lot of work, extensive research on hybrid working and in fact he published a great piece in Nature. You should all check it out on two days. Working from home increases productivity, right? Resignation is down by 33%. And those folks who utilize that flexible working privileges, if they so have it for their company, are equally likely to get promoted as those who work full time in the office. And but here's a big but to our question of the hour. Wellbeing is way up, right? Because people can use the time effectively to invest in themselves. And I think that's a, that's a magic. That's a magic trifecta confecta, if you will, where you can have greater wellbeing, less attrition in your workplace, just as productive, if not more. And quite frankly, and as the employee, you're just as likely to have opportunities to move up. You should absolutely have that as part of your dynamic. That 5 0. I think that's a, that's a return to the 50 model, as many banks have done, as many tech companies are now sort of threatening to do. We shall see if that. What is metrics for those.

00:26:55 - Jackie Ferguson

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think there are a few things that are valuable in this flexible work environment. One, if you think about professionals with disabilities or unseen illnesses, they having that flexibility to work from home is very important. And you know, years ago, before COVID right, We did not give folks that flexibility because we didn't think that they would be productive. But we saw in 2020 with COVID you know, people are productive from home. And I think it's been for my own team and just a hello and a shout out to my amazing team, the flexibility that's provided allows them to, you know, Joe, as you said, attend those personal things at home and go to those doctor's appointments. And you know, they're still at top level production and top level engagement with each other and collaboration. And so I think that flexible work model is ideal. I think that's, that's so true. But you're right, there is an importance of being able to interact and collaborate. So whether your employees are working hybrid locally or they're remote, bringing them in, you know, on a regular basis is important. Thank you for that. I know that's a struggle still for organizations. And how do we bring folks back? Do we bring them back full time? Do we bring them back half time? How do we continue to collaborate? Well, how do we continue to bring people in that are remote? And so that continues to be a struggle, I think, for leaders. So thank you for your insights on that in your experience. Sunnah, what are the most significant challenges boards face when trying to govern across different cultural, legal and regional landscapes in a global organization? And at a high level, how can we begin to address these challenges?

00:29:10 - Sunaina Sinha Haldea

Yes, it all depends on which country's board. You are right. There are certain countries where the requirement of the board is to solve for only one equation, and that is maximum shareholder value creation. Full stop at the end. Okay. Many U.S. companies have that paradigm at the board level in other countries, for example, I'm on the board of a German business. German law dictates that the chairman of the board solve for more than just shareholder value creation. They also share solve for stakeholder value creation, which also means employee value creation. And you have employee engagement as part of that. It's in the law. I have a requirement to do so as chairman of the board of that business. Not just employees, but also suppliers and so forth. And it's a really interesting way to think about it. Now, my many of my private equity colleagues would tell you it's a real pain in the behind when I need to fire people in Germany or France because there are so many laws and when it, you know, and so forth to consider. Yes, that's absolutely true. But for here, when we're talking about this topic of boards and leading with purpose and talking about workplace wellbeing, I think that's a powerful mindset shift because I work in a US bank and with the US Paradigm, I'm solving for one thing only and that's dollars and cents by the charter of the business, the charter of the law. That's what I'm trying to. But when you change that and you force the board to say, hey, hang on. You must think about employees, you must think about suppliers. Suddenly your aperture shifts from being very narrow to incredibly broad. That I've got to think about impact of decisions that I make as chairman of this board, as I run that board, as I talk to the CEO and the management company team there about how those decisions impact way more than just shareholders. I think it's that shifting of the aperture and the lens is the invitation I'd have to board members anywhere in the world. But it's incredibly powerful when you do that and go, wow. But all these other things, you could say I still have to make the best decision based on limited information, based on constrained resources. But at least I'm not thinking about the other people who are involved in this.

00:31:28 - Jackie Ferguson

Absolutely. Thank you for that. You know, it's so true, and you know it. It's different depending on where you are in the world. And you have to be aware of that. And so that's so important. Thank you, Sunainaina. Jo, your book, the Generous Leader, which of course I have with me today. And you know, I'm going to be honest, Jo, I refer to this book very often. I love it. It emphasizes the importance of generosity and leadership. Can you explain how this philosophy reshapes traditional leadership models and what inspired you to adopt this approach in your own leadership journey?

00:32:12 - Joe Davis

Okay. You know, I'm gonna build on so much Sunnah said, too. I, you know, we talk about great managers and then even greater leaders or whatever. I'm gonna say, even greater. Well, you could be a bad leader, I guess. But, you know, I think, you know, first off, we have to remember, and I support us leaders still have to drive outcomes. If you don't get results, you ain't going to be in the job. But we should put the rest, please. But it's essentially Joaquin du Otto, sorry, I've cited twice, said to me, you know, Joe, as a leader, of course, you know, outcomes matter.

00:32:45 - Joe Davis

He said, but the next part takes maturity. The sooner you understand that it's your job as a leader to connect with and unleash all the great human traits of your team, the sooner you'll get to the best outcomes. So it actually, I thought it interesting what you were saying. The German boards are the. Yeah. The law mandates the boards think about stakeholder engagement and the employees thriving. Quite frankly, if you want to get the best results, which is just what the law seems to indicate. Maybe not. They didn't. You actually need to do that anyway, you know. No, I think Leader, a new manager or leader of three people. In say, a BCG's world, you could do all the work yourself, you'd work all the time, kill yourself, but you could do it.

00:33:26 - Joe Davis

But the minute you've got 20 people or 50 people or 5,000, you can't do it anymore. So now you have to be motivating and inspiring. And you know, to me, when I say generosity and leadership, what I really mean is that the leader gives of themselves without expectation of direct personal gain so that others develop, grow and thrive at their full potential.

00:33:46 - Joe Davis

Now, of course, if they're doing that as a leader, you get personal gain because the business will be bad for you. Oh, look at you, you, you drove your business. Um, and I think this is. Now we're just gonna go back again to what we were talking about with sunit said, you know, she said, so much of our human lives are in the workplace. I even go one step further is probably what you meant. So much of our human lives are working, you know, tech, you know, BlackBerry started the change, the phone continued it and Covid finished it.

00:34:12 - Joe Davis

That the whole work life thing is blurred. So now we have, we are bringing our human self to work, whatever that work, where that is, and we want to be seen. And we really expect our leaders to share some of their humanity as you know. And you know, I think at the most core in that to me are two things.

00:34:31 - Joe Davis

This whole listen to learn, you know, really ask questions, listen. What does someone know that I don't know if I'm engaging them, they're feeling seen, they're more motivated. And then we haven't used the, you know, the buzzwords yet. But I do believe this whole thing of being authentic. I mean, no one wants to follow a leader who, who's trying to set off a Persona. They're perfect or close to perfect. You know, you need to see some humanity of them, in which case, you know, some level of authenticity which can be as simple as in a meeting, oh, I don't know the answer. Should we all work that's free to people. But a lot of leaders don't want to admit they don't know the answer.

00:35:06 - Joe Davis

Scott Kirby was telling me during the head CEO United during COVID he was going to tell everybody, hey, I'm not sure where this is going to go. Not sure how long you'll be laid off and his teeth. And you can't say that you're the CEO, you're supposed to know now, Nicole, you got a pass. But he said, what do you mean? I Don't know and nobody knows. So of course I'm going to say that and it was appreciated.

00:35:24 - Joe Davis

So I think this, you know, really a leader today has to drive results does it through the people. It's by ensuring they thrive at their full potential. And you know, two of the most important traits to me are really engaging and listening and sharing some of your documentary.

00:35:40 - Jackie Ferguson

Absolutely. And Joe, I want to stay on that point for just a second, sharing your own humanity. Because one of the things that leaders say right in the workplace is oh, please bring your authentic self to work. But they have to model that first. Right. They can't have that old school command and control. I have all the answers, I have it figured out kind of Persona. And then expect your employees to come into the workplace and feel that permission to be themselves, to take a risk, to make a mistake. You have to model that as a leader. And I think that that's so important. And thank you for saying that because I think that is the crux of the culture that we're trying to build. Starts with the leaders. I think that's so true.

00:36:34 - Joe Davis

Can I, we have time. Can I just build on it for one?

00:36:37 - Sunaina Sinha Haldea

Yes.

00:36:38 - Joe Davis

Sometimes they will shoot. Does that mean I, as a 35 year old black female have to cry in front of everybody? And if I do that, what it doesn't mean you have to go that far across the line. You know, you can be a leader in a room and say, I don't know the end of this year, believe it or not. And I just was at a dinner, dinner and someone said, well, Joe, one thing you always did is if your wife or your children called, no matter who was in the meeting, you picked up the phone. Yeah, not quite vulnerable, but I was not good at, not display, you know, who knows, might be wrong. It wasn't all about work. So I think there's simple ways you could show your humanity. It's not. You don't have to go to the extreme which many of us immediately think and then get stuck.

00:37:21 - Jackie Ferguson

That's a, that's a good point, Joe, because you also, and, and thank you for using that example of a black woman. Because culturally diverse women or people that are underrepresented in the workplace, you know, have a different experience. And so, you know, where is your level of comfort and feeling of safety in that workplace to be able to be your full self? And what does that mean? And it doesn't have to be to the full extent necessarily if you're not in the place to feel safe, but it can be Right. Picking up the phone for your children or for your spouse. And I think that's so important. Thank you for that. Thank you for that. What metrics or indicators do you each consider most important when assessing employee engagement and its impact on the overall organizational performance? Sunainaina, we'll start with you on this one.

00:38:20 - Sunaina Sinha Haldea

There's a number of metrics you can use and it really depends on the importance of engagement to your business, Right? So you can, you can test the temperature of how your employees are feeling about engagement, formally or informally. So formally, you know, Raymond James will send out a survey, anonymous survey, about how you're managed and how you're feeling in terms of health and wellbeing in the business. They'll do that formally every year and every head of every group and department will get results from that, from their workforce. So that's a metric, right? That's data that you can see directionally how people are feeling in your team. But you know, some of those can be painful to fill out, often self selected by those who are filling it out. And not everybody does. So you're not getting the perfect samples. Data is always data, data is always useful. So, so you do you take the formal input when you can. And by the way, you can do that VR360s, you can do that to via all sorts of feedbacks, sessions. One of the things that I employ in the business is if we are holding something that involves a number of employees, we'll do micro feedback, right? So we'll do feedback on the spot before you leave, fill it out or the day after. Here's five questions that take less than 90 seconds of your time. Do it that way. So micro dosing of feedback is often, you'll get much better uptake when you do it that way. But much more powerful for me is what you hear when you engage people with open ended questions. Now you need time for that and not everybody has the time for these open ended, you know, tell me how you're feeling, tell me how you're feeling about your, your job or tell me how you're feeling about the role. And how do you see this part of the business evolving and what's changed over the last six months? How would you summarize that? Open ended questions that really get someone talking. And that's when you hear the feel for the tempo, the morale, if you will, the energy that's in that group or in that cohort of people for that, you know, one person can do it all. Especially if you're managing dozens and dozens of people. It's not possible for one person who's doing anything other than a small handful to be able to have those engagement sessions. So for example, I'll do that with my senior cohort. There are about 18 of them globally and I'll make sure I do that on a fairly routine basis informally hearing what's happening in their worlds. But I have good management talent within my business. We'll do that with everybody else too. Now you don't always want to be doing that every two, three weeks and having an hour long conversation about how they're feeling. That's not the role of management either. So there is a, again, back to the word balance. That you will do it a couple of times a year and there'll be an open, safe space for them to share what's happening in their worlds and know that we will empathetically listen. We cannot implement. I tell them all businesses are not democracies. It's not a vote. Just because you all want, you know, a soda pop machine doesn't mean that we can get it, doesn't mean that it's part of the priority of the business. But will we listen to the arguments as to why? Yes, we always will.

00:41:25 - Jackie Ferguson

Awesome. Joe.

00:41:28 - Joe Davis

Well, I probably repeat it most of that. I think I just was thinking about this when I ran North America. The other thing that course does matter is the attrition numbers and the attrition numbers as you break them down, I mean, you know, we had surveys and I used to look, you know, I think poor. Do people like their work? Do I find it interesting or rewarding some of these joy comments, do I have the tools to do my job? But at the end of the day, you know, we have networks like most organizations, Black, Latinx, women, veterans, et cetera. You know, in all my efforts to enable people to feel that they belong and want to stay, you know it's going to be attrition numbers. And there were some like the veterans group, I could never crack. Essentially the veterans and the black were the toughest too. That should say I never crack. But that was, you know, at the end of the day, oh wow, everyone's leaving the same percentage they did all along, somehow doing something to engage them and make them feel that the enjoyment. So I agree with everything Sunina said, but I also, I do think you can also look at those retention numbers just. Or attrition numbers. They hold you damn accountable, like it or not.

00:42:33 - Jackie Ferguson

Absolutely. And you know, both of you provided such great information there. And that's one of the things Joe that the people often or organizations often don't measure. Is the attrition broken down by demographics?

00:42:48 - Joe Davis

You don't break it down.

00:42:49 - Sunaina Sinha Haldea

Absolutely.

00:42:50 - Jackie Ferguson

That's exactly right. And you don't know where you're having issues. And so that's, that's so important. So as we begin to close, Joan and Sunainada, both of you are highly successful global leaders. And having engaged with you both individually, I discovered a practice that you both have in common. Meditation in recognition of World Mental Health Day which was on October 10th. Can we close our session by having you share a bit about your individual practices and why meditation is so important to your self care? Joe, we'll start with you on this one.

00:43:27 - Joe Davis

Okay. Well this came into my life maybe, I don't know, 20 years ago when I went to one of these 10 day silent Vipassana retreats. If you've been to one, anyone on there, it's very intense. But it was very amazing. What it did more than anything helped me to get out of my own head. I'll just give one example. I don't like it when the dog barks. And I realized, wait, the dogs bark? It's my problem, not the dog's problem. You know, I'm getting mad at the dog, the dog, the bark's over, goes through the air, goes into my ear. You know, it's time, elapsed by time. I process it as my anger. So it's all about my own head. So it's really, you know, I'm less intense than the ten day silent anymore. But calms and focuses of mind. You realize the little things just don't matter a whole lot. And you also learn that all things do change or you remember that just, you know, so this moment will be this moment but the next moment isn't going to be um. So those are some of the, I will say even in a busy work life now you know, one thing I learned there's, you know, walking. I mean you can meditate. A lot of you sit on an airplane for three hours, you can just sit back. You know, it's not the same as being on the floor, but it's still a stop. And try to calm the mind. You can actually do it a lot of places.

00:44:35 - Jackie Ferguson

Absolutely. Thank you, Joe. Sunainaina.

00:44:39 - Sunaina Sinha Haldea

So you curate your audience. Well Jackie, I am also a Vipassana meditator.

00:44:43 - Joe Davis

Oh really?

00:44:44 - Sunaina Sinha Haldea

Yes, Joe. I've been going to annual 10 day silent Vipassana meditation courses for 13 years straight. I just came back from my last one just about two weeks ago and I meditate for an hour every day. Now people go, an hour. Where'd you find an hour? Think about the amount of time you all spend on your screen time, folks. There's plenty of time of the day. Don't give me that. And I wake up first thing in the morning. I'm up very early. I had three young kids, um, but I have a golden hour. It's usually between 5, 5, 15 for an hour. And I'll get my first morning sitting in. And it has been a game changer. The only superpower that I've been able to develop is the ability to quieten my own mind. And I urge everybody listening to invest in ways of doing the same. Right? If I used to get angry, upset, ecstatic, sad about something for four hours before I started meditating about a decade and a half ago, now it's two and a half hours. That's an hour and a half of liberation. I want my if you all would have been angry or sad or excited and jittery about something for at an 8 out of 10 level and because you have a meditation practice that's now 7 of a 10 level, it's nearly a 17, 18% difference in your symptoms. That's amazing. The ability control of your mind is the greatest power you will ever cultivate. And it's the ability to say, okay, I'm going to drop it now. And to tell your mind to do that, to take it away from destructive thoughts, from unconstructive places, and to focus it wherever you wish it to be, it is simply liberating. It's the best thing I've ever done for myself and now I do it every day. It's by one of the non negotiables in my life and I encourage anyone listening and everyone listening to invest in that for themselves.

00:46:37 - Jackie Ferguson

Amazing. Thank you both so much for participating in this special event and for sharing your expertise and insights and perspectives. Your voices are so important to this topic and I've enjoyed the conversation so much. So thank you both. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode of Diverse beyond the Checkbox. If you love this show, please take a moment to share it with a friend. Leave a rating and review and subscribe so you'll be reminded when new episodes are released. Become part of our community on Instagram, LinkedIn X, YouTube and TikTok or subscribe to our newsletter at BeyondtheCheckbox.com this show is part of the Living Corporate Network sponsored by the diversity movement and edited and produced by Earfluence. I'm Jackie Ferguson. Take care of yourself and each other.