Superstore to Superpower: Education and Inspiration with Inclusion Strategist Amber Cabral

Jackie - 00:00:10:

Welcome to Season 10 of DDiversity: Beyond the Checkbox, proudly presented by The Diversity Movement and part of the Living Corporate Network. I'm your host, Jackie Ferguson, author, business leader, and human rights advocate. In this podcast, we're diving deep into the stories of trailblazers, game changers, and glass ceiling breakers who share insights and professional success and personal development. Thank you for being part of this amazing community. Enjoy the show. You're listening to Diversity: Beyond the Checkbox. I'm so excited about today's guest. AmberCabral, renowned inclusion strategist, writer, speaker, and podcast host is here with us today. Amber, welcome to the show.

Amber - 00:00:57:

Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Jackie - 00:01:00:

Thank you. Amber, tell us a little bit about your journey and what initially sparked your interest in diversity, equity, and inclusion.

Amber - 00:01:10:

Oh, I always tell people that I was like, this found me. I did not find it. I actually used to work for the Blues family. So Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan, actually their HMO arm is called Blue Care Network. And back before it was and inclusion or even equity and inclusion, it was just diversity. And so at that time, I'm probably aging myself to death with that. But in any case, at that time, they had a diversity council that they started and I was kind of like voluntold to join. And I was like, what is this diversity council about? And so I joined it and that was kind of the first introduction to me realizing that this was work I was interested in. But at that time, it wasn't a job. It wasn't a thing that people did. I mean, maybe here and there, but it wasn't common. And so that's where my entry point started. And then from there, I just stayed on it. I found ways to work it into my job, which is kind of dope when you consider that we're in the era of us. Trying to get folks to understand that you should be embedding it in the work you're doing. I'm like, yeah, I was doing that before we were telling people to do that because I just was really interested in the work. And so that's how I got started. I do have people ask me all the time, like, what certificates and all that? And I'm like, I'm homegrown. I have no idea what you should go get to get started in the work today. But that's how I got

Jackie - 00:02:31:

started. That's fantastic. And tell us a little bit about how you landed your role at Walmart and what were some of the key experiences that influenced your career path there?

Amber - 00:02:43:

So I, first of all, build relationships and take good care of them. I definitely got a phone call that said, hey, I have an opportunity open. I think you would be a good fit for you should apply. And so I did. I think we have all seen the data that says that most of us find, you know, our jobs through friends. It is true. It has been true for me. There's been a few jobs I've applied for blindly, but mostly I've been kind of invited to apply. And so my entry into Walmart was very similar. Someone who knew me was like, I think you're the right person and you should apply. And so that's what started it. And I initially started out with responsibility for mentoring at Walmart globally. And then over time, my role evolved and I ended up like being a part of the culture transformation and, you know, having the intern program. So like there was an evolution before I finally like landed in diversity strategy. That's how I got there. The way I would say working at Walmart influenced my career path is that it's King Corporate. It's the biggest company in the history of the world. So like, there's a lot of, you know, the politics it's, you know, it's in Northwest Arkansas, which has its own very unique culture. It is a very, you know, just very notable company. Like, you know, you can say Walmart anywhere in the world almost, and people are going to know. And so that shapes like the way I engage. Like I got really good at knowing how to read people and read rooms and understand like, you know, what's not being said and, you know, all of those things. So that it shaped who I am as a leader. I always tell people I would never be able to run my own business if I didn't work at Walmart. Like it gave me the ability to navigate the complexities of humaning and working and having, you know, responsibility for scale and trying to get to know a brand and a business really quickly, in a way that I just don't know I would have otherwise gotten.

Jackie - 00:04:36:

That's amazing. Now, Amber, you mentioned you got that role through a friend or acquaintance. Tell us about the value of networking because so many of us, especially culturally diverse people, professionals. Don't prioritize networking the way we should. Tell us a little about how you do that, some tips around that so that we can do that better.

Amber - 00:05:03:

Yeah. So here's the thing. You find out about things that are a good fit for you when you build relationships. So if you want the kind of life that feels like you don't have to struggle and fight for everything, that you don't have to wait for someone to recognize your skill and talent, you want to get good at building relationships. So while it wasn't like I... I haven't been necessarily just handed a job, right? But I was definitely put in the position for success because someone was like, I think you're the right person. You need to be in the candidate pool. And that person on the backside is doing their due diligence to say, hey, I've got somebody in the candidate pool I'm excited about. And I think you'll be excited about them too. And so I think you don't get access to those kinds of things unless you do the networking. And I always tell people the simplest thing to keep in mind when you are networking with folks is think about what you have to give. What are you good at? What do you have that it's really easy for you to do that people compliment you on? Whatever that is, that little nugget, you want to take it with you when you are in a networking situation. Forget the exchanging of business cards. Forget all the LinkedIn stuff. I've got 10,000 or something people on LinkedIn. I don't even know half those folks, right? But what really does have value is when someone shows up in my world and they do something like... Hey, I noticed that you're blah, blah, blah. I think I can help you if you are interested because I'm really good at blah, blah, blah. Now all of a sudden I want to talk about like, oh my gosh, yes, I would love that. I'm interested in how you got into it. I want to know more about how you got the skill. Let me tell you about the way I've struggled with that thing. And so to some degree, being able to at least have awareness of what you have to bring to the conversation that's valuable can go a really long way. I had a young woman reach out to me on Instagram asking to be on my podcast and podcast is shot. So we're booked all the way to 2025, but she basically sent a note that said, Hey, this is my name. And she goes, I would love to be on your podcast. I have a podcast, but it's kind of backed up right now and I'm trying to grow my audience. So let me know if you're interested. And I was like, what? And then like, was like, if you want to know me, go to my page. And I'm like. What did you give me? Where's the incentive? Why? Why should I go look at your page? Why should I consider having you as a partner? I don't know what you do. I don't know who you are. You didn't give me any information. You sent me this quick note that essentially said, hey, I want more visibility and I want to get in front of your followers. So can you do that? And so I think we make a big mistake when we approach networking that way, because there's been this misunderstanding that networking is about us projecting to the world who we are. This is who I am. This is what I want. And it's like, no, what are you giving? What are you sharing, bringing to the conversation? What are you bringing that's of value to the circumstances that you are a part of? And that's what's going to get people interested in saying, oh yeah, I would love to have you on the podcast. I want you to talk about this. I want to hear more about, that's really the way it works. And so I think that's the first thing you can do. The second thing is, don't go into it thinking about how many people. Go into it thinking about what kind of value you've experienced. So the same way you want to come and give value, it feels really good when I go to a networking event, it can be thousands of folks there and I meet one person I'm excited about. I'm like, oh my gosh, this person was so great. They shared this thing. I can't wait to talk to them. I've got 20, 30 other business cards, however many LinkedIn connections. But that one person, that's the one. And you want to be that person. And so find ways to think about networking as quality instead of thinking of it as quantity. And the reason that can work really well is you end up, when you build a great network, you end up doing a lot less work. Like, I can't tell you how many things just come to me because people are like, oh, I know Amber. She's amazing. She would love this. Oh, I think Amber would be great for that. Let me connect the two of you. So like I, my network now largely grows because I was intentional and I was, you know, contributing and giving to my initial networking relationships. And those have continued to provide additional connections on their own. So like, you don't have to be, you know, the big personality that works a room well. You just got to know how to share what you're good at and be willing to give it and also be willing to accept that you're not going to connect with everybody, but you can walk away with a really rich connection with one or two folks.

Jackie - 00:09:32:

I love that. That's such great advice, Amber. Thank you for sharing that.

Amber - 00:09:35:

Of course. Great question.

Jackie - 00:09:37:

What motivated you to start your own firm after your tenure at Walmart?

Amber - 00:09:44:

I was not intending to do this either. So if there's anything you want to know about me, it is I am definitely a risk taker and I follow my gut. I am a gut leader. I'm going to make decisions with my gut first. So I am a it feels this way. Let me validate it with data kind of person. And I initially left Walmart thinking I'm going to take a little time off. You know, I left voluntarily. Right. Like I was I was you know, I wasn't forced out the company or anything. So I left and I said mostly because I was ready to get out of Arkansas. And so I moved to Dallas and I said, okay, let me figure out where I want to work. And so I was interviewing like crazy, never got a no, but said no to a lot of folks. So, you know, the places you want to go, you know, your Amazons and your Facebook and your Dropbox and all those folks. Like I was talking to those people, but I had gotten really good because I did culture at Walmart. So I knew how to ask the questions to get the culture of a team. And I knew how to assess if that was a team I wanted to be a part of. And I wasn't always hearing what I wanted to hear. And so. What ended up happening is I would go down to my godfather. I was staying in my godparents' house in Dallas. And I would go down and say, oh my gosh, I had this interview with Dropbox and it was amazing. And this is what I thought. Maybe I could live there. And da, da, da, da, da, things. And he'd sit behind his computer and look at me and go, is that what you want to do? And I would go, well, I want to stop sleeping on your theater room floor. Because I'm trying to figure out where I want to be so I don't want to get an apartment. But I don't know yet. So I would like to have some sense of where to be. And he was like, listen, you've got a great opportunity to figure out what you really want to do. So I don't think you should take a job until you know it's what you want to do. And I was like, wow, that's really powerful. And like, okay. And so I started, you know, like... Thinking about, like, what do I want to do? And in the middle of an interview with Google, actually, I had a moment where I was like, yeah, this isn't it. So I said, hey, you know. I got an answer for this question I asked. I didn't think it was the right answer for me. And I was like, I think this is a great opportunity for someone. I don't think it's me. The woman's jaw hit the floor. She's like, you're in like your second to last interview. You're like, we're down to two candidates. I said, well, it looks like I've made it easier for you, but I can also make some recommendations of some talent if you're interested that, you know, may be a good fit for the role. I don't think it's a good fit for me. And I decided I was going to try to do it by myself. I was like, I think I can do this diversity, equity, inclusion thing on my own. And I didn't know what I was getting into, but I was like, I think I can do it. I think I can. I think what I have to offer is valuable and different. And so I'm just going to try it. And within three months, I landed a contract. Within two months of that, I landed another contract. Six months later, I had met, matched my Walmart salary. A year later, I had almost quadrupled my Walmart salary. So I was like. All signs point to go. So it just kind of unfolded that way. I had someone around me, my godfather, asking me the right questions to make sure that I was making the choice that was going to be good for me and not just good for my resume.

Jackie - 00:12:47:

Right. That's amazing. Congratulations on that success.

Amber - 00:12:51:

Thank you. It's scary and hard.

Jackie - 00:12:54:

For sure. Now, for those of us who are not that big of a risk taker and kind of shy away from the scary, what are some of the things that we need to look for in a culture of an organization that we're joining? Because we know that that's important, but we don't necessarily know what to ask or what to look for. Can you help us with that?

Amber - 00:13:16:

Yeah. So the first thing I think you need to know are maybe three to five things that are really important to you about working somewhere. So for me at that time, one of the things that was super important for me was having access to development outside of my actual company. So I really wanted to be able to go to a conference and learn there. I really wanted to be able to get connected to folks that were not necessarily in the organization. And that wasn't something I necessarily felt like I needed to have right away. But I thought it was really important that I got, especially doing equity work. I'm like, yo, outside of the bubble of this culture, I want to still make sure that I'm growing so that I can bring good stuff back. And. When I encountered organizations that were not willing to do that, you know, because you can ask that, hey, can you tell me what professional and personal development looks like, you know, for this role? Do you have, you know, a training budget for this role? Is that something that you've thought about? And organizations can tell you like, yeah, no, you know, development looks like, you know, we bring folks in, you'll get exposure to that or, you know, things like that. They can be very candid. Oh, yeah, absolutely. You get a conference budget, whatever. And when I didn't hear the right answer, I knew that wasn't the right place. And so it doesn't have to be like, you don't have to think about risk as like, am I willing to take this leap? But I do think you have to be really honest with yourself about what you want. That's the best thing my godfather ever gave me was like, well, what do you want to do? What do you want it to feel like? You know, and it's like, it's a life guiding tenet at this point. I post it on my Instagram all the time. You can have whatever you want. You know, what is it? Think about it. And so, you know, figure out what are those three to five things. You know, I knew that I wanted to be no more than two levels away from the CEO. I knew that I wanted, like I said, to have opportunity to develop outside of the organization. I knew that I wanted to work on a team that had a mix of skill sets. So I didn't want all diversity folks all together. I wanted to have people that had come from different, you know, parts of the business and even different, like, you know, industries all together working. Because I understand how that informs the way that I would grow and the impact I could make on that team. So, like, what are the things you want out of the job? And like, get clear about how many different ways they can look and draw some hard lines. I'm going to say no if it's this. Like, even if the pay's right, if this is wrong, it's a no. I wanted to have a leader that I respected. It was critically important that I had a leader that I felt like this is the right person. I ended up turning down a role that checked all of my boxes, but they did not have a leader in place yet. And I told them, I said, well, when you figure out who the leader is, you can pull me back in. But I'm not accepting this role until you know who my boss would be. So you've got to be clear about what you want and be willing to stand the line on it. And that's not necessarily about being risky as much as it's about being honest with yourself about the part you want to play and shaping how your life goes.

Jackie - 00:16:11:

That's fantastic. Get clear. I think that's something that we go in with a wrong. Viewpoint, right? We're looking at salary. We're looking maybe at flexibility, but we're not looking at, and we're looking at the role itself, but not the things around it. I think that's so important. Thanks for sharing that, Amber.

Amber - 00:16:31:

Yes. Yes. And flexibility is a big one. So flexibility, hybrid working, all that. If that's a line for you, ask the question in an interview.

Jackie - 00:16:39:

Yeah.

Amber - 00:16:40:

Because you'll get the answer and it'll help you decide it. Maybe it's not the right company.

Jackie - 00:16:43:

That's exactly right. And it's so important for us to interview that organization the same way that they're interviewing us.

Amber - 00:16:51:

Every time.

Jackie - 00:16:52:

Yes. Amber, what were some of the biggest challenges that you faced in transitioning from a corporate role to running your own business and being an entrepreneur?

Amber - 00:17:05:

Well. So I'll say this. I think the first thing that's really important is mindset. I have so many people say to me, like, yeah, I'm not cut out for entrepreneurship because I just like the security of a job. And I'm like... What job is secure? Like you, you have like, you are not safe. The industry changes, you're going to get hit. You know what I'm saying? You got a boss that don't like you, they're going to find a way to coach you out. Whether they, you know, do it in a courteous way, you walk away with a severance package or, you know, they let you go for performance. Right. So like, we have to be really, really, really clear that like. Is this a thing I want to do and why? And so you don't end up in the situation where you're either clinging to staying in a organization or clinging to the idea of entrepreneurship based on these kind of like false ideas. I do not think I am any less or more safe as an entrepreneur than I was when I was an employee. In fact, some ways I feel more safe because when I need to pivot, I can pivot. It might take me some energy. I might spend a little time. I might even have to blow some money to make it happen. But I get a say on what that looks like. Whereas in an organization, that isn't always the case. And let's be very honest. We talk about layoffs and we talk about folks being impacted by attrition and all of those things. It's a very thoughtful process. And sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's like, hey, HR, you got to let 14 people go.

Jackie - 00:18:34:

Yeah.

Amber - 00:18:34:

And they throw the names up and pick, you know, and so it's not necessarily depending on how quickly it's done. It's not always a very thoughtful process. So like, don't hang on to this like false narrative that like you're safer in a job because you're not necessarily, but also be really clear about the things that a company will give you that you won't necessarily get. Um, as an entrepreneur, I don't get equity from companies. I got to buy my own stock. I've got to be responsible for my own financial planning or have someone do it for me, which I do. Um, and I've got to be thoughtful about what retirement looks like. And I have no health insurance. I have to purchase that on my own. I don't have like this pack of benefits that is given to me automatically. If that matters a lot to you, if you don't want to do that, then, you know, entrepreneurship isn't for you. So being willing to say, I'm willing to wear a few hats for a while. I'm curious enough. I am scrappy enough. I have enough financial acumen and security to be willing to hop out there and say, Hmm. Let's try it. Then perhaps you can do it. And in many cases, you can test it out, like keep your day job, you know, and then do the other thing like on the side. Do you love it? Does it excite you? Do you find yourself giving more of your time there that really you need to be spending at work? That could be a sign that you, you know, you could be right for that. But then as soon as you make that decision, you've got to figure out who you need. Like I had to figure out really fast, like, I need an admin, like all this like administrative, like paperwork, all this trying to file, you know, invoices for this company and this W-9 over here. And then, you know, there's a lot of paperwork and bureaucracy that happens that when you are in a job, you don't necessarily have to do that you have to do when you're in a company. And honestly, the bigger your company gets, the more bureaucratic it gets. You hire somebody from New York, you will come to realize, oh my gosh, it is hard to hire in New York. There's so much paperwork. And so like, you start to learn these things that, you know, you will start to realize like, it's... Just really, really good for you to think about where you need support. Because the thing about entrepreneurship is it's never just you. And so you got to be okay with that too.

Jackie - 00:20:38:

Absolutely. Absolutely. Amber, tell us about Cabral Co. And the organizations that you help and the leaders that you support.

Amber - 00:20:47:

Yeah. So Cabral Co. is a boutique equity and inclusion focused firm. We really just do leadership development, but that can be coaching. It can be strategy building. It can be project or program design. It can be training. It can be workshops. It just really depends. We really focus on trying to get a sense of what an organization really needs and then building a solution that meets that. There are some things that we don't do. We really don't do the building of your dashboards to track your people. We want you to have that, not my space. So we don't do necessarily everything, but we do a lot of the stuff that helps shape how people are experiencing work, how they are being evaluated in terms of their performance as a leader, and how to make sure that you're embedding the process of being an equitable organization into every aspect of the job. So that's basically what Cabral Co. does. And I love it. I mean, we've grown and shrank. We were as big as 10 folks. We're down to five folks now. I'm the only one that's really client facing at this point. The rest of the business kind of supports Amber doing what Amber does. And I'll be honest, I'm always in a bit of an evolutionary process as I take interest in new things, as I figure out how we can best serve our clients. And yeah, so it changes a lot, how we look at one point, I thought we were going to have a roster of trainers. And then I was like, actually, I think we're going to move away from training. We're going to move more into having really impactful dialogues, which completely changed the shape of the business. And so we are nimble. We're flexible. We work with mostly large organizations. So think like your Amazon, your Apple's, your Gaps. We work with the companies whose names you would find recognizable. But we also work with some smaller organizations that you don't necessarily know very well, because our goal is to work with companies who are looking to, be better, and so if you are in that bucket, what I'm going to do for you and what I'm going to do for this other group over here may look very different, but I'm in the business of trying to create equitable workspaces and helping people bring equity to life in their lives. And it just so happens that the vehicle that I use to get there is like, I go into these corporations, I teach all these tools, tactics, resources, ideas, and they get to take advantage of using it throughout their life. So that's what Cabral Co. does. And I'm in a weird little space too, where it's like, what does Amber do versus Cabral Co.? Where right now Amber is mostly Cabral Co.? But Amber also is a speaker. So like I do keynotes, I did a TED Talk, I've written books, you know? So there's like a little interesting mashup kind of happening now as I'm evolving. But yeah, that's what Cabral Co. does.

Jackie - 00:23:32:

That's fantastic. And you know, the workplace experience is so important and leaders have to understand the evolution that has occurred and is continuing to occur. To be able to retain their employees, to make sure they're as productive as they can be, to make sure that there's a sense of belonging that's fostered that creates well-being in the workplace. So that's such an important thing. And so many leaders aren't sure how to navigate that. Right. And so an organization like that is so important in giving some good guidance and direction.

Amber - 00:24:04:

Yeah. My goal is always to help people understand that like equity is a life thing. It's not like just something that you do at work. You need it at work, but like you really just need the skill, period. It's going to make you, you know, not be the person that's flipping out at Starbucks because, you know, your coffee's wrong. It's going to help you give someone some feedback when they do something that, you know, creates, you know, a lack of safety or access for you. It's going to put you in a position to know, you know, how to receive feedback when someone shares something with you that maybe you've done that wasn't like effective. So like it's it's a whole life tool. But when you're an adult, we don't go to school anymore. You know, most of us are not necessarily, you know, like some of us have pursued higher education as almost a career. But like, you know, there are a lot of us, we're in workplaces. And so workplaces also have to provide learning and also have to provide support and also have to provide tools and resource to help us human better in addition to what they already give us to help us do our jobs. And so I kind of fall in that space where it's like, you know, the human education part that occurs in the workplace would be where I would fall in and end up in most companies.

Jackie - 00:25:12:

Got it. That's fantastic. Now, Amber, you mentioned some of the things that Amber is doing apart from the organization. Let's talk about a few of those things. Your book, Allies and Advocates: Creating an Inclusive and Equitable Culture , has received pretty significant attention. What inspired you to write it and what's the core messages that you are hoping that readers take away?

Amber - 00:25:35:

I'm going to answer those in reverse. So what I hope readers take away is that inclusion and equity are accessible to you. Like it's not, you know, particularly now we're in this. Very tense. You know, it's an election year. It's like, the eye is dying. It's just this very extreme, like, temperament happening. What I want allies and advocates to do is help you understand that it don't got to be all that. It really doesn't. You can really just have a resource that says, oh my gosh, here's a way for me to be more thoughtful. Here's how I should apologize so that people understand that I mean it. Here's how I communicate when I want to share something that's difficult news. Here's how I make sure I'm building connections across the uniqueness that exists across identity. That's what this book is about. It's the 101 fundamental. Here is how you show up as an ally and an advocate in whatever space that you're in and also in the workplace. That's what the book is essentially about. Now, it came about much like many other things in my life by accident. I always knew I wanted to write a book, but I honestly would have showed up in my world and figured that, oh, I'm just never going to be an author because when am I going to have time? I had let the dream go, but shortly after George Floyd, I was working before George Floyd. I was in DEI before that. But, after George Floyd happened, of course, huge surge of requests and things people needed. And conversation was around allyship like crazy. I had built a training called Allies and Advocates, which is the name of the book. It was so popular. I would do it at one company and then I'd get five, six calls from other companies because people were calling their friends like, listen, you need to see this. My team was like, Amber, you need to do this public facing. I'm like, no, this is a lot of labor. I don't know if I should do that. I don't know if I want to charge people if I do it. I feel like I have to charge people if I do it. It was really, really, really wild. So ultimately my team convinced me and I was like, okay, I'll charge a fee. You can sign up, come to the course and you'll get this class that I'm doing in all these organizations. So I did that. And a woman signed up that was an acquisitions editor for Wiley. Before the class was even over, she sent me a note on Instagram like, hey, I'm in your class right now. It's amazing. I would love to know if you've ever thought about writing a book. And I thought she was joking because I'm like, I didn't know an acquisitions editor was a job. I didn't know that there were people looking to find folks to make authors. And so I'm like, what? What does this mean? So we end up on a call. And I mean, probably 30 days, barely, maybe later, I had signed my book deal. I agreed to turn my book in within 45 days. I wrote it in 13. What are you doing, lady? Way too much.

Jackie - 00:28:25:

Oh my goodness.

Amber - 00:28:27:

Yeah, don't do that. Don't do that. But I did it because I was like, okay. And yeah, it was very intense. My book was probably one of the fastest books Wiley's made. I think mine was four and a half months. And so it was really fast, but they were also trying to rise to the occasion of the moment. People are asking for this content. We don't really have a lot of it. And she saw something in the presentation that I gave that made her go, yo, this is it. And so I wrote the book, we got it out. It was out by November of 2020. And that's really what tipped it. And- you know, even with my second book, I hadn't really thought about, you know, necessarily doing a second book until she kind of hit me up like, hey, it's time, you know, like, are you going to write something else? You know? So, but, but this is again, you know, a testament to like, bring your value, you know, show, show your value, share what you, you know, are good at, find ways that, you know, my team had to convince me to do that. I wasn't initially going to do it, but I did it because they were like, listen, this is valuable. People need it. You got to find a way to get it out. And so I did, and it turned into this whole other opportunity. And I have no idea if that would have ever happened otherwise.

Jackie - 00:29:34:

That's amazing. Yeah. That's such good advice. You know, just put yourself out there a little bit. I think that's a great way to see what you could do, see what you could be. I think that's fantastic.

Amber - 00:29:47:

Yes.

Jackie - 00:29:48:

Amber, what inspired you to start your podcast, Guilty Privilege? And what has been the most rewarding aspect of it?

Amber - 00:29:55:

Yeah. So hats off to you for this podcast because podcasting is hard. It is. It takes a lot. Someone asked me, you know, a girlfriend of mine, I was on her podcast. The woman who was producing it, I just liked her. I was like, I like you. You've got good energy. I want to connect with you. And so we ended up on a conversation really just to kind of like network and connect. And she's like, you need a podcast. And I'm like, of course you're going to say that. Like you, you know, this is what you do. She's like, no, but it needs to be this. And we went back and forth. I mean, for months I was like, what? People don't want to hear about this. Like, yeah, I don't know if I'm going to do that. And she finally convinced me. And then we went back and forth about what the name should be. And she's the one who actually came up with like Guilty Privilege. That's it. And I'm like, that's catchy. Okay, let's do it. And part of the reason it's called that is because one of the things I like to make sure people understand is that privilege isn't bad. I'll have some. What are you doing with it? Are you helping people? Are you creating access and opportunity? Are you taking advantage of your privilege to perhaps open some doors? Are you having at least enough awareness of your privilege to make note of the differences between what you're experiencing and what someone else is experiencing? What are you doing with it? Because that shapes our world. And so just that core idea, what we do on Guilty Privilege, invite folks to come on and talk about what their privileges are, what they know, their area of expertise, and actually help people see how that creates equity in all these other environments because they are leaning into the privilege that they have. And so we've had folks, we've had HR people, we have a love-hate relationship with HR, most of us, but it gives you some perspective on what this role really is intended to do and what kind of power and privilege they have. I've had a woman who works in the cannabis industry, who kind of gave some insight, into why she got into that, specifically how that connected to acknowledging that there's been a whole swath of folks who have been impacted by legislation around cannabis, and now that's changed. What are we doing to make sure that we're making those folks whole? So there's just some intentionality around being thoughtful about the folks that come on and what they are doing that's unique. You started a fashion brand, it's a luxury brand at that, and it's successful. Tell us about that. Why did you choose to do it? What are some of the the things that you experienced that, you know, you felt compelled to push on using your privilege so that you could create equity and access for others. And so I, um, yeah, I, it's hard. I don't do my podcast the way you do. Cause I, I don't think I could do it. I literally like carve out three days and like, we shoot every day.

Jackie - 00:32:37:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Amber - 00:32:38:

I'm like, I can't, I just can't like, I'm like, I would be rescheduling folks. My, like my day-to-day life feels like it is a constant moving, you know, thing. But if I can save these like three days in a row, I can get it done. So that's how I shoot it. But like, it, it's, it is, um, it's intense, you know, because you're, you are. You're educating people and you're shaping, you know, like how they're going to see something. And like, I just think you have to take that with some degree of responsibility. You have to have thoughtful questions. You have to, you know, be considerate about, you know, what happens if you get a guest that's like chatty when they're off camera, but super chatty, you know, like, you know, not chatty when they're on, you know, like that happens. And so it's, there's, there's, it's a dance. I don't know why I'm still doing it. I don't know if I'm going to keep doing it. I do love it, but like, I'm also like so overwhelmed by it as well, but people seem to really like it. So I kind of like keep it out there. So that's, what's going on with Guilty Privilege and why I do it and how it came about. You're probably like, you're not kidding. Like you end up doing all this stuff because, because it just happens. But it's true.

Jackie - 00:33:40:

It's, I think that's so great. And, and the thing that I've noticed Amber is that you just keep saying, yes, let's try it. You know, and the ability to take the risk. And I found over my career saying yes has been the best thing for me, even when I'm scared, even when I don't know what the outcome is going to be. And so I think more people need to do that and lean into the yeses.

Amber - 00:34:05:

You're never going to figure out what you really want to do with your life until you do things.

Jackie - 00:34:08:

That's right.

Amber - 00:34:09:

So like say yes to the stuff. I mean, if you get to the other side of it and you're like, eh.

Jackie - 00:34:13:

Right. You'll know.

Amber - 00:34:15:

Yeah. You have more data. You know, no, like I didn't like this. What I didn't like about it was this and this.

Jackie - 00:34:22:

Yeah.

Amber - 00:34:22:

So the next thing that shows up, if it's got that thing in it that you don't like, you know, like, nope, not for me.

Jackie - 00:34:27:

Not for me. That's exactly right.

Amber - 00:34:29:

Yeah. I do. I say yes to a lot. I say yes to, and I pay attention to what people ask me for. I think you get really clear about what you're good at and how you make an impact when you pay attention to what people ask you for and what they thank you for. And I'm very attentive to those things. Like what do people typically hit me up and say, Amber, can you help me? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like that thing. Oh, I need to do that. Cause people know me for that. Like they're hitting me upward. And then what is the thing that people come back to me and say, oh, you really helped me win you. You know, those are the things that I usually try to use as my, cause very often it's something that like, it was effortless. Like it was just who I am. And so the more you get to lean into your natural style, you know, you create this access and opportunity in this life that feels authentic to you, but is really valuable to other people.

Jackie - 00:35:17:

That's really great. And Amber, I think that it's important to be intentional. And I think that's the thread through this whole conversation, knowing what you want, what you don't want, trying things, and then assessing. And I think a lot of times what happens is we kind of move through life like that weird floaty thing in front of the car dealerships, right?

Amber - 00:35:43:

Yes.

Jackie - 00:35:44:

Where we're just bouncing from thing to thing and we're not stopping to say, okay, hold on. What is it that I want? What do I need? And taking time to slow down, be intentional about that, I think is so valuable.

Amber - 00:35:58:

Yes. The visual of the floaty thing is a perfect example. It's like, all the things. Yeah. I don't think we're taught to think about what we want. I think people stop asking you that question by the time you're out of grade school. But when you're young, they're like, what do you want to be when you grow up? And you have no idea. You're like a firefighter. You're like, I don't want to do that.

Jackie - 00:36:20:

Yeah.

Amber - 00:36:22:

We stop asking. We stop asking what we want. And so then we're not clear. And then we also don't do a good job of... Even if you're not asking yourself what you want, you got to at least take the time to reflect on your experiences and say, like, ooh, I really didn't like that. Or I really loved this. So even if you haven't done the labor of trying to define your wants, at the very least, do an assessment of your experiences and decide what was valuable about them and what you perhaps want to repeat again, because it's going to show up in a way you don't expect. And you'll end up saying yes to something that you absolutely aren't going to like or saying no to something that would be an amazing opportunity for you because you haven't done that reflection to get clear on like, oh, yeah, this lane right here, this is my sweet spot. And so I do think we have to practice. And I encourage, you know, my coaching client, I mean, I'm all over the internet. Like, you can have whatever you want. What is it? You don't have to live the life you've been told to. You might not want to get married. You might not want kids. You may not want to own a house. You may, you know, you may choose to live like me. I live in the middle of the city. I live in a high rise. If I own a home, it probably will be on an island somewhere, right? Like, it's not the way I want to live. But I had to get clear about that. And like, we don't, we, I don't know, we just stop. Querying ourselves like that. And so we end up in this weird, we give the professional answers to what we want instead of giving the answers that really inform how we want our lives to actually feel.

Jackie - 00:37:51:

Absolutely. That's such amazing advice. Amber, in today's climate, there are significant headwinds with DEI efforts. How do you sustain and advocate for inclusion today versus in 2020? And then what strategies do you recommend for organizations to maintain that DEI momentum amidst external pressures?

Amber - 00:38:14:

A couple of things I think are really key. One, you got to talk about it, but you also got to do it. You know, we're really good at like, oh, that training was so great. And then we go back to doing our job the way that we were doing it. You got to do it. So I think that's the first thing, like for it to be effective, for it to, you know, especially in a climate where it's like tension and people are feeling a way about it. Now is the time to keep sticking with the work that we're doing and do less of the talking because the talking is creating all the noise, but we can role model the impact that we want to make by just doing the stuff. The second part to that is, and this goes to your question about how do you sustain it? People got to know what the stuff is. We can go in there, we can give people a pack of definite, here's what diversity means, this is what bias means, this is what equity means. But do people know what to do to make it come to life? Do people have practical tools, questions, whatever that they can ask to actually make us show up in the space where we are being thoughtful and equitable and creating a sense of belonging? Have we really honed in on what that looks like in action so that people can say, well, I don't know how to do this, but this tactic I'm going to practice. And so the sustaining happens when we are holding people accountable for the behaviors that create a sense of belonging. When it's in my performance appraisal that I am supposed to be good at giving and receiving feedback with my team. You know, it doesn't have to be, is your leader inclusive? A lot of folks are going to go, oh, well, I don't know. I feel like, you know, maybe they have more favoritism for this or that person. Let's not ask it that way. Let's ask about the behaviors that, like, inclusion has. So, you know, is this person a good communicator? What does that look like? You know, does this person receive feedback well? Do they give feedback well? Are they supportive of your endeavors? What does that look like? Do they know how to apologize when there's a mistake? Do they take ownership of, you know, their mistakes when, you know, something happens? Like, those things you can put in performance appraisals. You can track them. You can get feedback from, you know, peers and business partners, and they're not, like, trying to figure out, like, well, gee, is that inclusive or is it not? You know, which I think is what's happening now. And if we do the work that way. They can get mad about whatever letters they want to get mad about. Y'all don't want to say DEI? Cool. DEI is dying? Sure. Fine. Whatever. What's not dying is effective communication, giving and receiving feedback, knowing how to apologize, speaking up when you need to. Those things aren't going anywhere. And so how do we get to the business of doing the work? That's how you get the sustaining to happen. Now, you're going to have the things that are going to be just generally difficult to navigate. Most of us aren't necessarily dealing with that stuff in our day-to-day anyway. So obviously, the fearless fund lawsuit that's happening. Yes, it's a big deal. Yes, you should pay attention to it. Yes, it can inform the way we experience work and even life going forward, whether we are people building a business or not. But it still doesn't have to mean that you're not a good human at work. Can still activate belonging, even if that case falls all the way apart. You can still show up as an inclusive leader and, you know, demonstrate what allyship looks like. And so when we think about how to sustain the work, we've got to be really clear about what are the actions that I should be taking? How am I holding my leaders accountable for taking them? And that's when we're going to start to get to the place where folks are like less concerned about what the actual acronym is and more concerned about like what this really is, which is like, how do I feel when I'm working here? And how am I making others feel when they're working here too?

Jackie - 00:41:52:

Absolutely. It's about the workplace experience. It's not about whatever letters you want to use or not use and what you think that means. And is it political when it's really just human-centered? But I totally agree with that. Amber, as an entrepreneur, and especially thinking about women entrepreneurs, what advice do you have for how to define and measure the value of your product or service and then communicate that? Because there's so much around, oh, what are you charging? Oh, I wouldn't pay that for that. And then so often we undervalue what it is that we have to offer. What's your advice for how not to do that?

Amber - 00:42:37:

I'll say this, and I tell all of my mentees and friends and colleagues that are also entrepreneurs this. Women. This is a little different for men. Men don't suffer the same way with the pay inequity. They may, depending on like, obviously like their ethnicity, but like. For the most part, men are kind of encouraged to ask for what they want in a way. And even if they don't know what they want, they're going to ask for something. Women tend to be a lot more reserved about that. When it comes to pricing. I usually encourage people to price themselves at the number that they're afraid to say. That's the right price. You're afraid to say it. But that's the price. That's what you want. That's what you want for the thing. And I usually can tell when someone's not doing it because I'll see pricing like... $9,400. And I'm like, so what you really want is 10K. But you felt good saying 9,400, right? And so like, I usually can tell when I see things like that. Put yourself where you want to be. Like, you know, be honest with it. Why do you think it should be that? Can you explain it? If the answer is yes, then do it. And so I price myself that way. And I'll be honest, like my team, and this is why I have to have, and this is another piece of advice for entrepreneurs as well. Get somebody else to talk pricing for you. When you are the one talking pricing, folks are going to try to negotiate you down because it's you. But when someone else, for whatever reason, says, oh yeah, it's 10K for blah, blah, blah. People are like, okay. So there's something about handing that off. Delegate it. So set the price, delegate it, make sure that that person that's given the price, that salesperson is able to say, here's what the value of this is, this is why. So you do want to be able to articulate your value. But when it comes to women pricing, women entrepreneurs, especially, we tend to underprice and then we overperform. So you need to be real clear about the scope. As well. What are you doing for this $10,000? What are you not doing? And you're going to, you know, as you're growing in your business, you're going to learn the things that like. Can derail you. Like you're, you're going to realize like, Ooh, I got to put a cap on those like pre-calls before a session. Cause I had one client once give me like, Oh, we need to have a call once a week leading up to the session. I'm like, the session's nine weeks away. Like, but now I don't know if I can tell you, no, you know? So like, you're going to get those. And the next proposal that goes out, we'll say you get two calls before the session, you know? So like you, you're going to still get those lessons and like, it is what it is, you know, you'll bump your head, you'll bruise your knee, but you know, definitely like price yourself at the point where it feels uncomfortable and make sure you can explain it. And as a third thing, and I try to do this, please tell people when they're underpriced. Because we don't know. We don't know. Candidly, 2020, when I was doing training, I did a training at Amazon and I will never forget this woman as long as I live, but I did a training at Amazon. She's no longer there. So I feel comfortable saying this, but and it was in front of 11,000 people. It was on Juneteenth. They had like this day of learning and they had me come and participate. It was a series of other leaders that were participating. And she like hit my personal cell phone after and was like, you are underpriced. You are so underpriced. And I was like, I don't know what to charge. She was like, well, here is the range of what else we paid. You are too low. And I'm going to tell you, you were the best one that I saw today. I didn't go to all of them, but the ones that I saw today, you were the best one. There were 11,000 folks in there. They are ranting and raving over the moon about you. You are underpriced. I have made it my own practice to make sure when someone delivers a service for me and it is amazing, I let them know like, oh yeah, you're underpriced. You need to price yourself appropriately. So we can also do that too.

Jackie - 00:46:30:

That's amazing. I love that.

Amber - 00:46:32:

Yeah.

Jackie - 00:46:33:

Amber, this conversation has been great. I could go another hour of questions, but I don't have it. How can listeners learn more about your work and what do you want to leave our listeners with today?

Amber - 00:46:46:

Ooh, okay. So as far as learning more about my work, you can always go to ambercabral.com. You can also follow me on LinkedIn. So my name is Amber Cabral, that's C-A-B-R-A-L. I'm also on Instagram. It's my nickname, that's intentional. It's bamcabral and I'm Bam Cabral on Instagram because you get all of me. So if you want professional me, there's a place for that. But if you want to see all the colors, Bam Cabral on Instagram, I'm pretty active in my stories and I post there. But if you're just generally curious about things that I am interested in, you can probably just pop my name into a search engine and like this stuff will pop up. As far as like leaving your listeners with something, yo, you can have whatever you want. Figure out what you want. Like sit down and actually ask yourself, how do I want my life to feel? Ask yourself that question and then figure out what about your life doesn't feel that way and how you can shift it. It could be something as simple as like, yo, I want to have the best rest ever when I go to bed. And you're going to realize that you are sleeping on a crappy mattress. Like it's time to get a new one. So like, what is it? Like, what is it that you want your world to feel like? And start actively running in that direction. And you will almost unintentionally create, you know, exactly the kind of life you want to live.

Jackie - 00:47:57:

Amber, thank you so much. This has been a great conversation. I've enjoyed every minute. And I look forward to talking to you again. Thanks for being here.

Amber - 00:48:07:

Of course. Thanks for having me. This was great.

Jackie - 00:48:13:

Thanks for listening to this episode of Diversity: Beyond the Checkbox. If you loved this show, please take a moment to share it with a friend, leave a rating and review. And subscribe so you'll be reminded when new episodes are released. Become part of our community on Instagram, LinkedIn, X, YouTube, and TikTok, or subscribe to our newsletter at beyondthecheckbox.com. This show is part of the Living Corporate Network, sponsored by The Diversity Movement, and edited and produced by Earfluence. I'm Jackie Ferguson. Take care of yourself and each other.