21:02:10 RRSAgent has joined #svg 21:02:10 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/11/17-svg-irc 21:02:12 RRSAgent, make logs public 21:02:12 Zakim has joined #svg 21:02:14 Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG 21:02:14 ok, trackbot, I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM already started 21:02:15 Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference 21:02:15 Date: 17 November 2011 21:03:08 ed, not going to call in today, sorry 21:03:56 + +61.2.980.5.aabb 21:04:19 zakim, aabb is me 21:04:19 +cyril; got it 21:05:09 + +33.9.53.77.aacc 21:05:39 zakim, aacc is Tav 21:05:39 +Tav; got it 21:07:27 it took me two tries 21:09:24 +[IPcaller] 21:09:33 Zakim, [IP is me 21:09:34 +ed; got it 21:10:06 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011OctDec/0066.html 21:15:38 shepazu has joined #svg 21:16:44 http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/svg2/file/5c6f60699bab 21:17:21 doug, are you calling in? 21:17:41 oh, I could 21:17:56 when is it? now? 21:18:01 yes 21:21:56 + +1.919.824.aadd 21:22:33 topic: new telcon time 21:24:20 http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?iso=20111117T20&p1=239 21:25:06 so the proposal is 19.00 UTC 21:25:19 heycam, are you ok with 7am ? 21:25:29 cyril, yes, that's ok 21:25:39 - +1.408.543.aaaa 21:26:35 RESOLVED: we'll move the weekly telcon to 19.00 UTC (was 20.00 UTC) 21:28:11 topic: SVG2 editing 21:28:19 scribeNick: ed 21:28:20 http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/SPEC/StyleTestPage.html 21:28:44 TB: i'm proposing some changes based on the existing style 21:29:09 ... the structure is merged, taking the best of both parts 21:30:39 ... the page shows what I'm proposing 21:32:24 ... suggested new structure is easier to edit and read 21:33:47 ... old markup is using tables with deprecated attributes 21:35:11 ... more appropriate to use css for styling it, proposal uses a dl 21:35:37 ... what do you think? 21:35:52 CC: in the gradient syntax example i like what we had before 21:36:11 ... in the new style we don't know if userSpaceOnUse is allowed 21:36:43 DS: i prefer simplicity where possible 21:37:00 ... i'd like the markup to have classes so that it can be extracted easily 21:37:16 ... to enable reuse for documentation 21:37:57 TB: i'm using classes in the proposal 21:38:30 DS: would prefer more, just to make it easy to pull the data out 21:38:44 ... would like each dd to be class=value or class=propvalue 21:39:02 ... just want to make sure it's easy to extract 21:40:49 TB: we have three appendices, they should be generated by script not handedited 21:41:08 ED: i think they are generated already by the buildscripts 21:41:22 heycam, are the attribute, property and element tables generated automatically in SVG 1.1 2nd ed ? 21:41:27 TB: but they are in master too, why? 21:41:44 cyril, property index no, element/attribute tables yes 21:42:57 for 1.2T the property index is generated too though, right? so not using the exact same setup 21:43:06 is/was 21:44:03 CC: you've tried to reuse the property table, also for attributes 21:44:23 ... do we need the animatable? 21:44:36 TB: we had that before 21:44:49 ed, it was, using robin's scripts 21:45:01 CC: no notion of initial value for attributes, we resolved to call them lacuna value 21:45:06 ed, the SVG 1.1 property table includes more information than the 1.2T one though 21:45:25 shepazu, don't forget to let me know what the issue with the table generation scripts are for the integration spec 21:45:56 DS: we should keep the lacuna value definition 21:46:05 ... and not call it something else 21:46:42 http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/intro.html#TermLacunaValue 21:46:45 TB: we could link to the definition 21:47:07 ... that works for me 21:48:33 ED: i think it's a good effort, the markup in 1.1 in some cases isn't great 21:49:28 TB: ok, so I can go ahead and apply it to the pservers.html chapter and we can see how that looks 21:50:12 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2/Authoring_Guide 21:50:12 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2/Authoring_Guide 21:50:20 ED: your mail mentioned an authoring guide... 21:50:51 TB: i've merged what was on the wiki before with my suggestions 21:51:14 ... explaining how it works, and the most important files 21:51:56 ... lists how-tos for images, figures, examples etc 21:52:09 ... how to add an element (the places you need to edit for adding one) 21:52:45 CC: you say that eltindex.html, but that's generated? 21:53:28 TB: right, that file shouldn't be needed 21:53:56 ... i've not yet got to adding DOM interfaces 21:54:31 ... comments? 21:54:49 CC: what's the differnce between notes and annotations, who's the target audience? 21:57:03 -Tav 21:57:14 ED: you mention moving towards html5 in the spec, do you still want to keep the document xml-wellformed? 21:57:38 +Tav 21:57:40 TB: yes, the edited version needs to be that since it contains custom markup 21:58:26 pdengler has joined #svg 21:58:43 DS: we could generate two serializations 21:59:07 TB: yes, the XSL could output that 21:59:49 pdengler has joined #svg 22:00:05 ... the only thing i found that there can't be a comment before the doctype, IE goes into quirksmode 22:00:16 +[Microsoft] 22:00:25 ... validates as html5 22:02:28 ED: ok, so you don't want to move to using HTML5 for the master document 22:02:56 TB: right, i don't think we can 22:03:50 TB: want feedback on the editing proposals 22:04:11 Topic: svg2 requirements 22:04:13 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Mailing_List_Feedback 22:04:58 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Mailing_List_Feedback#Text_flow_to_arbitrary_shapes 22:05:13 TB: this is something with css right? 22:05:27 ... it's going to be in css 22:05:36 zakim, pointer 22:05:36 I don't understand 'pointer', cyril 22:05:43 CC: i don't know 22:05:43 RRSAgent, pointer 22:05:43 See http://www.w3.org/2011/11/17-svg-irc#T22-05-43-1 22:06:21 TB: i would really like to see this in, it's very useful 22:06:29 ... requested alot 22:06:52 ... inkscape saves in the 1.2 full markup format, and people get caught by it 22:07:15 CC: i remember objections from the css group when this was added to 1.2 22:07:31 TB: with exclusions and regions css is adding the same functionality 22:08:15 CC: so we should investigate if those could work in/with svg, maybe a simplified version 22:09:33 DS: we should keep the dialog open on this 22:09:51 ... so talk to vincent about it 22:10:08 CC: but we agree on the requirement? 22:10:13 DS: yes 22:10:21 (nit) - exclusions is the shape. Regions isn't involved 22:10:22 TB: sounds good 22:11:56 DS: one part is textwrapping, and the other is the more general exclusions 22:13:02 RESOLUTION: svg2 will require automatic textwrapping compatible with css 22:14:10 s/textwrapping/textwrapping in arbitrary shapes/ 22:14:36 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Mailing_List_Feedback#Enhanced_text_support 22:15:10 CC: the second thing there, isn't that glyph warping? 22:15:13 ED: i think so 22:15:25 CC: we've resolved on that already 22:16:10 ... i'll move that bulletpoint 22:16:37 ED: the first bulletpoint isn't that something we already have in 1.1? 22:16:52 TB: would be nice if there was some more explanation here 22:17:26 ED: ok, so let's leave that until we have more details 22:17:45 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Mailing_List_Feedback#Label_placement 22:18:09 TB: isn't there a mapping TF that this could be decided by? 22:19:05 DS: well, just because they have that usecase doesn't mean everyone else does it the same... dataviz relies on it 22:19:27 CC: is it possible to designa model that suits everyone? 22:19:38 DS: sceptic? 22:20:01 CC: i might want my label to be placed in the middleof a country, or outside on the left... 22:20:24 TB: i htink it's more about making labels not end up on top each other 22:20:35 DS: then we're getting into graph theory 22:20:43 TB: would like to see a complete proposal 22:20:50 ... don't think it's an easy problem 22:21:24 DS: svg aslready has other wasy of drawing stuff, but if it's not easy to use then that's not good 22:22:03 ... even if it's a hard problem if it enables people to make content easier that's good 22:22:45 RESOLUTION: we need a more concrete proposal before we can consider label placement 22:23:10 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Mailing_List_Feedback#Textpath_method.3D.22stretch.22_definition 22:23:18 TB: yes 22:23:27 ... it's not welldefined right now 22:23:31 ED: i agree 22:23:57 ... would like to see that clarified 22:25:34 ... what Israel and others were asking for is more complex than what Opera implements today 22:26:00 RESOLUTION: we will clarify method=stretch on textPath elements 22:26:26 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Mailing_List_Feedback#Flip-invariant_text 22:27:15 TB: and if the element is flipped upside down you want it to render rightside up? 22:27:24 ED: yes I think that's the idea 22:27:41 CC: could be solved if we had transformBehaviour=pinned on text 22:28:55 ED: i think it's not a very big feature, but the req as such is fine with me 22:29:43 RESOLUTION: svg2 will have a way to specify flip-invariant text 22:30:33 -ed 22:30:34 -cyril 22:30:36 -Tav 22:30:39 - +1.919.824.aadd 22:30:44 trackbot, end telcon 22:30:44 Zakim, list attendees 22:30:44 As of this point the attendees have been +1.408.543.aaaa, +61.2.980.5.aabb, cyril, +33.9.53.77.aacc, Tav, [IPcaller], ed, +1.919.824.aadd, [Microsoft] 22:30:45 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 22:30:45 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/11/17-svg-minutes.html trackbot 22:30:46 RRSAgent, bye 22:30:46 I see no action items